Do we hacve fallen sin natures or not now?

[JonC]

Due to the fall, are we now born as sinners, or are with just born with human natures not affected yet until we choose to sin against God?

What do you mean by "nature's"?

 

[MB]

My answer/view to your opening question (Do we hacve fallen sin natures or not now?) --- in brief is that like a battery having two poles (positive and negative) fallen mankind has a fallen bipolar nature of good and evil where the good pole and the evil pole are both pulling on our wills.

The following is a re-post of a post I put on another thread, but that thread was closed before any comments could be made about my post contents.

I believe that fallen mankind is capable of making free will choices to accept or reject the gospel message. I believe in the inherent free will ability of fallen unsaved mankind to accept/believe or reject God’s call/drawing/convicting/convincing/persuading teaching work using the creation, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 1:18-20; Rom. 10:8-17; 1Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12; Luke 8:21; Jn. 15:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:13).

If just having knowledge of good and evil means/indicates that man is fallen and condemned, then why is not God’s nature also fallen and condemned because Gen. 3:22 states that man (Adam and Eve) has become like God knowing good and evil? However, the majority of Scripture indicates that God’s nature is pure good (holy, righteous and just); therefore, it is probably not just possession of mere knowledge of good and evil that indicates that Adam and Eve (mankind) are condemned and fallen since God already told Adam and Eve what was the good thing to do (to obey His commands) and what the evil thing to do (to disobey His commands) was before they sinned by disobeying God’s instructions; therefore, because of Romans 2:15 and 7:23, I believe most likely it is an internal fallen corrupted bipolar nature of good and evil (one pole is good and the other pole is evil), not a single poled fallen nature of evil, produced in Adam and Eve (as Cavinists and Arminians teach) when they sinned by disobeying God’s command that condemns fallen mankind, and this fallen bipolar nature of good and evil is what internally drives mankind to do good and evil (at the discretion of their free wills) and also gives mankind an inherent internal knowledge of good and evil. Calvinist’s teach that fallen mankind has only an inherent single poled nature of evil that does not move/drive men and women to do good. This fallen bipolar nature (having a good pole and an evil pole) in fallen mankind would account for the inherent internal drive to do both good and evil and also give mankind inherent internal basic knowledge of good and evil after many generations later when mankind had lost all verbal and written records of information from God following the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Many Calvinists teach that a person has to be indwelt first by the (Holy Spirit) (regenerated, born again) in order to obtain a will to do the good thing of believing in Christ as their savior. All Calvinists teach that man has to have God first perform an effective magical supernatural transformation of a person’s will into a believing will (even if they do not call it regeneration, born again) because they believe man’s internal single poled evil nature does not have a good pole that also internally drives man to do good, especially the good of making a free will decision to repent and accept Jesus as their savior.

In the book of Romans, God through Paul gives strong evidence that mankind has a bipolar nature having two poles (one pole is good and the other pole is evil). In Rom. 2:15 the Holy Spirit states through the Apostle Paul that the gentiles have the law written in their hearts which I believe, is strong, biblical evidence of the good spiritual pole of the bipolar nature of fallen mankind. In Rom. 7:23 the Holy Spirit has the Apostle Paul state that a law of sin dwells in his members which I believe, is strong, biblical evidence of the evil spiritual pole of the bipolar nature of fallen mankind. I believe this spiritual bipolar fallen nature of good and evil pulling on the will of man also gives man what the Bible calls a conscience, Rom. 2:15.

Therefore, I believe it is more accurate to described fallen mankind as being born corrupted bipolar sinners [The unsaved old man (Rom. 6:6; Eph.4:22; Col. 3:9)] having bipolar hearts/natures (“the heart is deceitful above all things….” – Jer. 17:9) with two spiritual poles (good and evil) because of Adam’s and Eve’s sin; that is, fallen/corrupted/sinful mankind has a spiritually bipolar nature of good and evil, a good pole and an evil pole (Gen. 2:16-17; Gen. 3:1-7; Rom. 1:19, Rom. 2:14-15, Rom. 7:15-25) internally pulling on our free wills, rather than just externally pulling on our wills as took place with God’s external commands and instructions and the external temptation of the serpent that took place in the garden of Eden – thus, man knowing and doing good and evil is the result of the fallen bipolar nature received when Adam and Eve sinned by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because one pole of man’s bipolar fallen nature is evil, it inclines unsaved mankind and saved mankind towards sin and good, thus ensuring that morally capable people will sin and not be able to live a perfect sinless life. The new man (born again person) is a Christian born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit and should be willingly walking in/after the Spirit); that is, the new man has a good spiritual pole, an evil spiritual pole and the indwelling Holy Spirit all pulling on our wills and we should be (of his/our own free will) willingly walking in/after the Spirit (Eph. 3:16, Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 7:24-8:26; Gal. 5:16-25) in order to have higher success rate of more consistently living Godly lives.

I refer to myself as an “inherent-free-willer” Christian, which means I believe in the inherent free will ability of fallen unsaved mankind to accept/believe or reject God’s call/drawing/convicting/convincing/persuading teaching work using the creation, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 1:18-20; Rom. 10:8-17; 1Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12; Luke 8:21; Jn. 15:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:13).

My limited knowledge of early Christian history, so far, has led me to conclude that when the early Christians concluded that fallen mankind had only one single poled nature of evil, the door was opened for pagan unconditional determinism and unconditional predestination to be easily injected into Christianity (by saying man lost his free will capacity to choose good or evil when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) ultimately resulting in the development of an anemic puppeteering, bipolar good and evil nature of God concept and Calvinism's no free will of man TULIP soteriology.

Like you I believe in freewill but I do not believe man has fallen because man has no place to fall from to start with. Neither did Adam.
Deu_24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This verse above proves man is not responsible for the sins of there fathers. Therefore no one has inherited Adam's sin as Calvinism claims..
MB

 

[church mouse guy]

Like you I believe in freewill but I do not believe man has fallen because man has no place to fall from to start with. Neither did Adam.
Deu_24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This verse above proves man is not responsible for the sins of there fathers. Therefore no one has inherited Adam's sin as Calvinism claims..
MB

Oh, so we do not bear Adam's image the world around and babies don't die. Rotten deal then, isn't it?

 

[MB]

Oh, so we do not bear Adam's image the world around and babies don't die. Rotten deal then, isn't it?

Why do you think that. We do not bear Adam's sin. We are not born sinners. Born in sin yes. No where in scripture does it ever say we do bare Adam's sin. Prove me wrong.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do you think that. We do not bear Adam's sin. We are not born sinners. Born in sin yes. No where in scripture does it ever say we do bare Adam's sin. Prove me wrong.
MB

1 Corinthians 15:22

 

[Yeshua1]

What do you mean by "nature's"?

The spiritual non material aspect of Man!

 

[JonC]

The spiritual non material aspect of Man!

The soul?

 

[Yeshua1]

The soul?

The part of Mankind that became spiritual dead and corrupted by the Fall!

 

[JonC]

The part of Mankind that became spiritual dead and corrupted by the Fall!

You are describing, not defining.

When you say "nature" do you mean man is created with a body, a soul, a spirit, and a nature?

I know we use the word a lot but I am not sure what you mean by it. What part of us is the "nature"?

A verse using the term would help as historically "nature" is a debated philosophical term (similar to some usages of "person") which can be a "loaded" word.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are describing, not defining.

When you say "nature" do you mean man is created with a body, a soul, a spirit, and a nature?

I know we use the word a lot but I am not sure what you mean by it. What part of us is the "nature"?

A verse using the term would help as historically "nature" is a debated philosophical term (similar to some usages of "person") which can be a "loaded" word.

Galatians 5:19-23

 

[JonC]

Galatians 5:19-23

OK, I can agree here but why do we not just use biblical words. The flesh vs the spirit seems much clearer than talking about "fallen natures".

We are of the flesh and need to be born of the Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK, I can agree here but why do we not just use biblical words. The flesh vs the spirit seems much clearer than talking about "fallen natures".

We are of the flesh and need to be born of the Spirit.

Flesh is our fallen nature

 

[MB]

1 Corinthians 15:22

Death entered the world nothing about inheriting Adam's sin. Be sides death is a blessing when your saved and old and in pain.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Death entered the world nothing about inheriting Adam's sin. Be sides death is a blessing when your saved and old and in pain.
MB

We all save for Jesus were and are under the curse and effects of the Fall!

 

[JonC]

Flesh is our fallen nature

But the Bible says that Adam was created flesh. Are you saying Adam was created "with a fallen nature"?

 

[Yeshua1]

But the Bible says that Adam was created flesh. Are you saying Adam was created "with a fallen nature"?

Nope, had a sinless nature before he fell!

 

[JonC]

Nope, had a sinless nature before he fell!

So are you saying that the Bible is wrong and he was not created "flesh" or are you saying that "flesh" does not in fact mean "sinful nature".

 

[percho]

Why do you think that. We do not bear Adam's sin. We are not born sinners. Born in sin yes. No where in scripture does it ever say we do bare Adam's sin. Prove me wrong.
MB

and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come (Born) of a woman, come (Born) under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; Gal 4:4,5

according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph 1:4,5

Can one not see from that above that the man to be created was going to have to be redeemed? That before he was created in the image of his creator he was going to need to be, Born again?

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And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground. From Gen 2:7

nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus? hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

Did not the potter, God, form the man, clay, to be exactly what he was? Adam was the means unto the the post above to line.

Adam did his job.

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so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly.
1 Cor 15:45,46,49

I want to add. IMHO that is the gospel of the kingdom of God.

See 1 Cor 15:50

Compare what is written above to Daniel chapters 2 and 7. Who are those at the end of those chapters. The re-born ones.

The plan of God before the foundation of the world.

 

[JonC]

Nope, had a sinless nature before he fell!

So God did not make Adam "flesh" as Scripture states?

I am trying to follow you, Y1, not debating the issue but trying to see where you stand.

You said that the "flesh" refers to sinful nature. Scripture says Adam was created "flesh". But then you say Adam was not created with a "sinful nature".

Perhaps you could show in the Bible when Adam became flesh?

 

[percho]

BTW again IMHO there are only two vessels from the lump. The first Adam and the last Adam.