Do we have any Evangelical Arminians Here on site now then?

[Paleouss]

Greetings my brother, Silverhair. Thank you for your edification.

From this it seems your view holds that God picked out a select group to be saved and only those can be saved and all others are condemned from the start. Am I wrong in this understanding of your view?

I do not hold to any form of Supralapsariansim. That being a decree by God that is the logical order of selecting the children of wrath prior to a fall. I deny the Calvinist's logical deduction that God predestines some for hell (although God surely knew it and allowed it and intended to use it toward His good).

I do hold to particular election. I understand that you hold to corporate election (I have no problems with this view...the result ends up being the same for me).

The confusion is that I just don't accept that God's atemporal foreknowledge, planning, and will is incompatible with man's will and temporal choice of faith (or not). I think it's like comparing apples to oranges. We as temporal beings tend to think of God temporally when He is atemporal. We confound logical atemporal order and temporal order.

So when I get to the dilemma of particular election and the concept of freedom of the will to have faith or not, submit or not...I don't fell I need to take a side. I'm not concerned with the difficulty of reconciling the two. Well...I am but I accept it because I think the Bible teaches both.

From what I see in scripture God desires all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, and Christ came so that all could be saved, John 3: 17. Man has the ability to trust in or to reject God and he will be held responsible for the choices he makes, John 3:18.

I agree with all this and think the Bible teaches it.

Christ made provision for all to be able to be saved when He covered all sin at the cross, 1 John 2:2. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13. Those that have believed are then one of the elect as they are then in the "Elect One" Christ Jesus, Ephesians 1:13, through the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

As we are told it is by the grace of God that we are saved through faith, we do not deserve it and we can not earn it via good works, Ephesians 2:8-9. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13.

I agree with all of these under Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross. Christ is the savior of all men through the conquering of that which held mankind in bondage. Christ did something tangible for all men through His Cosmic Triumph. Because of this Cosmic Triumph those that turn to God in faith will be saved. Taken out from under the law and put under grace.

But the Son of God didn't come to be the Savior of all men from the law. Otherwise we have universalism. Those that would be taken out from under the law was known, planned, and willed to be temporal. Some want to contend that those that do not come out from under the law have 'potential'...I have no problem with this. Potential seems to attempt to counter Supralapsarianism. A position I have no problems in attempting to counter.


Peace to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

But the Son of God didn't come to be the Savior of all men from the law. Otherwise we have universalism. Those that would be taken out from under the law was known, planned, and willed to be temporal.

I am curious how you came to this conclusion as we see numerous passages that point to Christ coming to be the savior of all.

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

1Jn_2:1-2 propitiation for the whole world

Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly

Do these passages not in include all of humanity?

But we also see faith as the condition of salvation so salvation is not unconditional nor particular as you asserted in post #17

Rom_3:28 justified by faith...apart from works

Rom_5:1 having been justified by faith
Rom_5:2 introduction by faith into this grace

Eph_2:8 by grace...saved through faith

Further we see that we are judged by our words.

Mat 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Your confession of faith in or rejection of God will be the basis of your salvation or condemnation.

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Tea]

If God does the choosing as you suggest and He desires that all come to repentance then why do not all come to repentance? Your theology say God determines all things so what is the problem?

If God desires all to come to repentance and not all come to repentance, then He must be talking about all His elect. Otherwise, He doesn’t get what He desires, or He could save everybody and then be a universalist.

But we see that calvinist has it backwards when they say you are saved so you will believe.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Calvinist Loraine Boettner Calvinist's have a person saved prior to them believing in Christ Jesus.

I wouldn’t say that a man believes in Christ because He is saved. A man believes in Christ because God regenerates them, they are now able to believe in Christ and are saved.

God is sovereign even what man has a God given free will.

God is sovereign and man’s will is only free to do evil.

Deliberate sin is sin we know we should not do but do it anyway.

Any act of sin is deliberate and the result of our flesh. If I stub my toe and start cursing as a reaction to the pain, it’s very difficult to stop and try to rationalize it when it all happens so fast. So what, is God going to give me a pass because I had a moment of weakness?

God has commanded us to trust in Him and that is something that we can do and that is why we are held responsible for not doing so.

I agree that He commands us to trust in Him and He will hold those responsible for not doing so. He still has to regenerate a person’s hearts before they even want to obey His commands.

 

[Silverhair]

If God desires all to come to repentance and not all come to repentance, then He must be talking about all His elect. Otherwise, He doesn’t get what He desires, or He could save everybody and then be a universalist.

You make these comments but do not give any scripture to support your claim.

The bible is clear whom Christ died for, sinners, the world, the ungodly. Does that leave anyone out?

God say He desires that all, not just the calvinist elect, to come to repentance. Do you not believe the word of God? What makes you think He was just speaking of the elect other than that is what you have been taught by your calvinist teachers.

I wouldn’t say that a man believes in Christ because He is saved. A man believes in Christ because God regenerates them, they are now able to believe in Christ and are saved.

You do realize that regeneration means to be made anew/born again.
Mat_19:28, Tit_3:5 regeneration G3824

Strong’s: From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act) that is (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically messianic restoration: - regeneration.

Mounce: a new birth; regeneration, renovation, Mat_19:28; Tit_3:5.

Thayer: new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

So since you disagree with these men it would seem you have people reborn before they even believe. How is that possible form a biblical perspective.

The bible is clear that we MUST believe B4 we are saved.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This the same thing we see on the OT

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

What scripture are you basing your view on?

God is sovereign and man’s will is only free to do evil.

That is an illogical statement. A free will choice requires that there be more than one choice available. Are you saying that man never does what is right?

What can free will mean if not free will?
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

Is God sovereign YES

Can He do whatever He wants YES.

So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign? This is just one of the problems I find in Calvinism.

Any act of sin is deliberate and the result of our flesh. If I stub my toe and start cursing as a reaction to the pain, it’s very difficult to stop and try to rationalize it when it all happens so fast. So what, is God going to give me a pass because I had a moment of weakness?

Are you perfect as God is? Do you have perfect knowledge of the holiness of God?
There are many times that we fall short of the perfection of God without our doing it deliberately.

But even when we do we can ask God for forgiveness for our unknown sins and He will forgive us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, no, not all our sins are deliberate sins.

I agree that He commands us to trust in Him and He will hold those responsible for not doing so. He still has to regenerate a person’s hearts before they even want to obey His commands.

That is just your calvinism talking. You want people born again/saved before they can believe, that is calvinism not the bible.

 

[Tea]

You make these comments but do not give any scripture to support your claim.

The bible is clear whom Christ died for, sinners, the world, the ungodly. Does that leave anyone out?

God say He desires that all, not just the calvinist elect, to come to repentance. Do you not believe the word of God? What makes you think He was just speaking of the elect other than that is what you have been taught by your calvinist teachers.

Yes, Christ died for ungodly sinners. That is descriptive of the elect whom He has redeemed from out of the world.

John 17:6 (ESV)
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

You do realize that regeneration means to be made anew/born again.

Agreed.

What scripture are you basing your view on?

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

It is very clear. We can't do anything to activate the regeneration process, even by willing ourselves to believe. It is the work of the Holy Spirit washing us and giving us the ability to believe in the first place.

That is an illogical statement. A free will choice requires that there be more than one choice available. Are you saying that man never does what is right?

Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Hebrews 11:6 (ESV)
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Whatever good deeds a lost man does mean absolutely nothing to God. The only thing that pleases Him is having faith.

So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign? This is just one of the problems I find in Calvinism.

That's like asking if God can create a rock too heavy for Him to move. God can't be sovereign if man's free will can override His free will.

Are you perfect as God is? Do you have perfect knowledge of the holiness of God?
There are many times that we fall short of the perfection of God without our doing it deliberately.

Jeremiah 13:23 (ESV)
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

We may not always be able to think rationally before we sin. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us. That is the result of our fleshly nature while we are still in this world. So, it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not; God is going to hold us just as accountable for a sin that was premeditated.

Romans 3:23 (ESV)
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That is just your calvinism talking. You want people born again/saved before they can believe, that is calvinism not the bible.

No. I want people born again so that they can believe and be saved. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, Christ died for ungodly sinners. That is descriptive of the elect whom He has redeemed from out of the world.

So you are now saying you believe in universalism. Remember we are all ungodly sinners prior to our freely trusting in Him for our salvation.

Are you going to limit the power of God to save those that believe in Him?

Where does it say that only the elect are ungodly sinners?

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So if Christ only died for the ungodly sinners, your so called elect, then the rest of humanity must not have been ungodly sinners. Thus by your claim they do not need a savior as they have not sinned and all should be in heaven.

It is very clear. We can't do anything to activate the regeneration process, even by willing ourselves to believe. It is the work of the Holy Spirit washing us and giving us the ability to believe in the first place.

So since God desires all to be saved and Christ was the propitiation for the whole world a ransom for all the question becomes who is left out?

Now I know that God is just so He does not judge people for something that they cannot do as that would make Him unjust.

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith...

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Where are you getting your false ideas? Your views do not come from the bible but from some calvinist teacher.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned in those verses?

Whatever good deeds a lost man does mean absolutely nothing to God. The only thing that pleases Him is having faith.

God does not save us because of our good deeds/works He saves us because of our faith in Him.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

That's like asking if God can create a rock too heavy for Him to move. God can't be sovereign if man's free will can override His free will.

You are denying God's free will when you say He cannot.

Man is not overruling God's free will man is using his God given free will. But I have to ask, what free will of God is man overruling?

Is God sovereign?
It only needs a YES or NO answer.
If you agree that God is sovereign, as I am sure you must, then you have to agree that God in His free will can create a world where humans sometimes experience Limited Free Will and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur.

We may not always be able to think rationally before we sin. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us. That is the result of our fleshly nature while we are still in this world. So, it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not; God is going to hold us just as accountable for a sin that was premeditated.

Of course He holds us accountable for our sin. That is why we should confess our known and unknown sins. Don't you do that?

No. I want people born again so that they can believe and be saved. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

The bible is clear that we must believe B4 we are born again.

Your view is wrong and not biblical. What you are presenting is that faith in Christ Jesus is not required for salvation as God will give you faith after you are saved.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

If Calvinism is true then faith in Jesus is secondary to election and logically faith plays no part in your salvation, election is what matters not faith.

The Calvinist asks: “How shall they believe if they have not been regenerated?” whereas Christianity asks: “How shall they believe if they have not heard?” Romans 10:14; John 20:31