Do we have any Evangelical Arminians Here on site now then?

[Paleouss]

Greetings my brother, Silverhair. Thank you for your edification.

From this it seems your view holds that God picked out a select group to be saved and only those can be saved and all others are condemned from the start. Am I wrong in this understanding of your view?

I do not hold to any form of Supralapsariansim. That being a decree by God that is the logical order of selecting the children of wrath prior to a fall. I deny the Calvinist's logical deduction that God predestines some for hell (although God surely knew it and allowed it and intended to use it toward His good).

I do hold to particular election. I understand that you hold to corporate election (I have no problems with this view...the result ends up being the same for me).

The confusion is that I just don't accept that God's atemporal foreknowledge, planning, and will is incompatible with man's will and temporal choice of faith (or not). I think it's like comparing apples to oranges. We as temporal beings tend to think of God temporally when He is atemporal. We confound logical atemporal order and temporal order.

So when I get to the dilemma of particular election and the concept of freedom of the will to have faith or not, submit or not...I don't fell I need to take a side. I'm not concerned with the difficulty of reconciling the two. Well...I am but I accept it because I think the Bible teaches both.

From what I see in scripture God desires all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, and Christ came so that all could be saved, John 3: 17. Man has the ability to trust in or to reject God and he will be held responsible for the choices he makes, John 3:18.

I agree with all this and think the Bible teaches it.

Christ made provision for all to be able to be saved when He covered all sin at the cross, 1 John 2:2. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13. Those that have believed are then one of the elect as they are then in the "Elect One" Christ Jesus, Ephesians 1:13, through the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

As we are told it is by the grace of God that we are saved through faith, we do not deserve it and we can not earn it via good works, Ephesians 2:8-9. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13.

I agree with all of these under Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross. Christ is the savior of all men through the conquering of that which held mankind in bondage. Christ did something tangible for all men through His Cosmic Triumph. Because of this Cosmic Triumph those that turn to God in faith will be saved. Taken out from under the law and put under grace.

But the Son of God didn't come to be the Savior of all men from the law. Otherwise we have universalism. Those that would be taken out from under the law was known, planned, and willed to be temporal. Some want to contend that those that do not come out from under the law have 'potential'...I have no problem with this. Potential seems to attempt to counter Supralapsarianism. A position I have no problems in attempting to counter.


Peace to you brother

 

[Silverhair]

But the Son of God didn't come to be the Savior of all men from the law. Otherwise we have universalism. Those that would be taken out from under the law was known, planned, and willed to be temporal.

I am curious how you came to this conclusion as we see numerous passages that point to Christ coming to be the savior of all.

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

1Jn_2:1-2 propitiation for the whole world

Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly

Do these passages not in include all of humanity?

But we also see faith as the condition of salvation so salvation is not unconditional nor particular as you asserted in post #17

Rom_3:28 justified by faith...apart from works

Rom_5:1 having been justified by faith
Rom_5:2 introduction by faith into this grace

Eph_2:8 by grace...saved through faith

Further we see that we are judged by our words.

Mat 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Your confession of faith in or rejection of God will be the basis of your salvation or condemnation.

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Tea]

If God does the choosing as you suggest and He desires that all come to repentance then why do not all come to repentance? Your theology say God determines all things so what is the problem?

If God desires all to come to repentance and not all come to repentance, then He must be talking about all His elect. Otherwise, He doesn’t get what He desires, or He could save everybody and then be a universalist.

But we see that calvinist has it backwards when they say you are saved so you will believe.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Calvinist Loraine Boettner Calvinist's have a person saved prior to them believing in Christ Jesus.

I wouldn’t say that a man believes in Christ because He is saved. A man believes in Christ because God regenerates them, they are now able to believe in Christ and are saved.

God is sovereign even what man has a God given free will.

God is sovereign and man’s will is only free to do evil.

Deliberate sin is sin we know we should not do but do it anyway.

Any act of sin is deliberate and the result of our flesh. If I stub my toe and start cursing as a reaction to the pain, it’s very difficult to stop and try to rationalize it when it all happens so fast. So what, is God going to give me a pass because I had a moment of weakness?

God has commanded us to trust in Him and that is something that we can do and that is why we are held responsible for not doing so.

I agree that He commands us to trust in Him and He will hold those responsible for not doing so. He still has to regenerate a person’s hearts before they even want to obey His commands.

 

[Silverhair]

If God desires all to come to repentance and not all come to repentance, then He must be talking about all His elect. Otherwise, He doesn’t get what He desires, or He could save everybody and then be a universalist.

You make these comments but do not give any scripture to support your claim.

The bible is clear whom Christ died for, sinners, the world, the ungodly. Does that leave anyone out?

God say He desires that all, not just the calvinist elect, to come to repentance. Do you not believe the word of God? What makes you think He was just speaking of the elect other than that is what you have been taught by your calvinist teachers.

I wouldn’t say that a man believes in Christ because He is saved. A man believes in Christ because God regenerates them, they are now able to believe in Christ and are saved.

You do realize that regeneration means to be made anew/born again.
Mat_19:28, Tit_3:5 regeneration G3824

Strong’s: From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act) that is (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically messianic restoration: - regeneration.

Mounce: a new birth; regeneration, renovation, Mat_19:28; Tit_3:5.

Thayer: new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

So since you disagree with these men it would seem you have people reborn before they even believe. How is that possible form a biblical perspective.

The bible is clear that we MUST believe B4 we are saved.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This the same thing we see on the OT

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

What scripture are you basing your view on?

God is sovereign and man’s will is only free to do evil.

That is an illogical statement. A free will choice requires that there be more than one choice available. Are you saying that man never does what is right?

What can free will mean if not free will?
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

Is God sovereign YES

Can He do whatever He wants YES.

So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign? This is just one of the problems I find in Calvinism.

Any act of sin is deliberate and the result of our flesh. If I stub my toe and start cursing as a reaction to the pain, it’s very difficult to stop and try to rationalize it when it all happens so fast. So what, is God going to give me a pass because I had a moment of weakness?

Are you perfect as God is? Do you have perfect knowledge of the holiness of God?
There are many times that we fall short of the perfection of God without our doing it deliberately.

But even when we do we can ask God for forgiveness for our unknown sins and He will forgive us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, no, not all our sins are deliberate sins.

I agree that He commands us to trust in Him and He will hold those responsible for not doing so. He still has to regenerate a person’s hearts before they even want to obey His commands.

That is just your calvinism talking. You want people born again/saved before they can believe, that is calvinism not the bible.

 

[Tea]

You make these comments but do not give any scripture to support your claim.

The bible is clear whom Christ died for, sinners, the world, the ungodly. Does that leave anyone out?

God say He desires that all, not just the calvinist elect, to come to repentance. Do you not believe the word of God? What makes you think He was just speaking of the elect other than that is what you have been taught by your calvinist teachers.

Yes, Christ died for ungodly sinners. That is descriptive of the elect whom He has redeemed from out of the world.

John 17:6 (ESV)
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

You do realize that regeneration means to be made anew/born again.

Agreed.

What scripture are you basing your view on?

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

It is very clear. We can't do anything to activate the regeneration process, even by willing ourselves to believe. It is the work of the Holy Spirit washing us and giving us the ability to believe in the first place.

That is an illogical statement. A free will choice requires that there be more than one choice available. Are you saying that man never does what is right?

Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Hebrews 11:6 (ESV)
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Whatever good deeds a lost man does mean absolutely nothing to God. The only thing that pleases Him is having faith.

So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign? This is just one of the problems I find in Calvinism.

That's like asking if God can create a rock too heavy for Him to move. God can't be sovereign if man's free will can override His free will.

Are you perfect as God is? Do you have perfect knowledge of the holiness of God?
There are many times that we fall short of the perfection of God without our doing it deliberately.

Jeremiah 13:23 (ESV)
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

We may not always be able to think rationally before we sin. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us. That is the result of our fleshly nature while we are still in this world. So, it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not; God is going to hold us just as accountable for a sin that was premeditated.

Romans 3:23 (ESV)
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That is just your calvinism talking. You want people born again/saved before they can believe, that is calvinism not the bible.

No. I want people born again so that they can believe and be saved. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, Christ died for ungodly sinners. That is descriptive of the elect whom He has redeemed from out of the world.

So you are now saying you believe in universalism. Remember we are all ungodly sinners prior to our freely trusting in Him for our salvation.

Are you going to limit the power of God to save those that believe in Him?

Where does it say that only the elect are ungodly sinners?

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So if Christ only died for the ungodly sinners, your so called elect, then the rest of humanity must not have been ungodly sinners. Thus by your claim they do not need a savior as they have not sinned and all should be in heaven.

It is very clear. We can't do anything to activate the regeneration process, even by willing ourselves to believe. It is the work of the Holy Spirit washing us and giving us the ability to believe in the first place.

So since God desires all to be saved and Christ was the propitiation for the whole world a ransom for all the question becomes who is left out?

Now I know that God is just so He does not judge people for something that they cannot do as that would make Him unjust.

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith...

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Where are you getting your false ideas? Your views do not come from the bible but from some calvinist teacher.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned in those verses?

Whatever good deeds a lost man does mean absolutely nothing to God. The only thing that pleases Him is having faith.

God does not save us because of our good deeds/works He saves us because of our faith in Him.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

That's like asking if God can create a rock too heavy for Him to move. God can't be sovereign if man's free will can override His free will.

You are denying God's free will when you say He cannot.

Man is not overruling God's free will man is using his God given free will. But I have to ask, what free will of God is man overruling?

Is God sovereign?
It only needs a YES or NO answer.
If you agree that God is sovereign, as I am sure you must, then you have to agree that God in His free will can create a world where humans sometimes experience Limited Free Will and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur.

We may not always be able to think rationally before we sin. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us. That is the result of our fleshly nature while we are still in this world. So, it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not; God is going to hold us just as accountable for a sin that was premeditated.

Of course He holds us accountable for our sin. That is why we should confess our known and unknown sins. Don't you do that?

No. I want people born again so that they can believe and be saved. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

The bible is clear that we must believe B4 we are born again.

Your view is wrong and not biblical. What you are presenting is that faith in Christ Jesus is not required for salvation as God will give you faith after you are saved.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

If Calvinism is true then faith in Jesus is secondary to election and logically faith plays no part in your salvation, election is what matters not faith.

The Calvinist asks: “How shall they believe if they have not been regenerated?” whereas Christianity asks: “How shall they believe if they have not heard?” Romans 10:14; John 20:31

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings on this wonderful Wednesday, Siverhair. Thank you again for your edification. I want you to know I will be gone for a couple of days if you reply.

I am curious how you came to this conclusion as we see numerous passages that point to Christ coming to be the savior of all.

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

1Jn_2:1-2 propitiation for the whole world

Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly

Like I said before, these are all true (obviously) due to Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross. These verses are referring to Christ's Cosmic Triumph. This Cosmic Triumph does something that is actually tangible for all men (the whole world)...AND...establishes potential for eternal life for all men (the whole world).

Something tangible = conquered sin, death, the Devil, and Hades to the benefit of all men.
Something potential = allowed each man brought out of this power of the kingdom of darkness, which is every man, the potential for eternal life if they would only believe.

In this respect, Christ is the Savior of all men (both in a tangible way and a potential way). But notice nothing I just said pertains to the law.

The law is of God. It is perfect, holy and just. The law is not something the Son of God conquered but fulfills and completes. Thus, after man is brought out from within the powers of the kingdom of darkness, a result of Christ Cosmic Conquering, now the law is the hurdle for man. Thank God the Son of God addressed this also.

As Paul says, "the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?" (Rom 7:1) and Jesus "delivers us from the wrath to come." (1Thes 1:10)... or..."saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9). Jesus also came to redeem some from the law.

Basically I'm saying that when reading scripture one should recognize which accomplishment is being referred to. All being under a larger umbrella of atonement.

But we also see faith as the condition of salvation so salvation is not unconditional nor particular as you asserted in post #17

Rom_3:28 justified by faith...apart from works

Rom_5:1 having been justified by faith
Rom_5:2 introduction by faith into this grace

Eph_2:8 by grace...saved through faith

I'm assuming what you are referring to in post #17 is my statement "I also hold to particular and unconditional election". I probably need to clarify this more often since most go straight to assuming the Calvinist formulation, which is not exactly what I intend. By unconditional I mean without a condition of merit (which I contend is the more traditionally meaning). Since I believe that faith by its very definition, and a scriptural description, is empty of merit. I do not intend to mean that God does not require as a temporal condition of salvation, faith. Faith is empty of all merit and the essence of submission.

To all of your verses I say, Amen. But I'll add (meaning accept yours and list others)...

(Rom 3:24) 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
(Tit 3:7) 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Rom 5:9) 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

It's a trifecta, we are justified by His grace, by His blood, and by faith. None interfering with the other...but none being true without the other.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Silverhair]

Greetings on this wonderful Wednesday, Siverhair. Thank you again for your edification. I want you to know I will be gone for a couple of days if you reply.

Like I said before, these are all true (obviously) due to Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross. These verses are referring to Christ's Cosmic Triumph. This Cosmic Triumph does something that is actually tangible for all men (the whole world)...AND...establishes potential for eternal life for all men (the whole world).

Something tangible = conquered sin, death, the Devil, and Hades to the benefit of all men.
Something potential = allowed each man brought out of this power of the kingdom of darkness, which is every man, the potential for eternal life if they would only believe.

In this respect, Christ is the Savior of all men (both in a tangible way and a potential way). But notice nothing I just said pertains to the law.

The law is of God. It is perfect, holy and just. The law is not something the Son of God conquered but fulfills and completes. Thus, after man is brought out from within the powers of the kingdom of darkness, a result of Christ Cosmic Conquering, now the law is the hurdle for man. Thank God the Son of God addressed this also.

As Paul says, "the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?" (Rom 7:1) and Jesus "delivers us from the wrath to come." (1Thes 1:10)... or..."saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9). Jesus also came to redeem some from the law.

Basically I'm saying that when reading scripture one should recognize which accomplishment is being referred to. All being under a larger umbrella of atonement.

I'm assuming what you are referring to in post #17 is my statement "I also hold to particular and unconditional election". I probably need to clarify this more often since most go straight to assuming the Calvinist formulation, which is not exactly what I intend. By unconditional I mean without a condition of merit (which I contend is the more traditionally meaning). Since I believe that faith by its very definition, and a scriptural description, is empty of merit. I do not intend to mean that God does not require as a temporal condition of salvation, faith. Faith is empty of all merit and the essence of submission.

To all of your verses I say, Amen. But I'll add (meaning accept yours and list others)...

(Rom 3:24) 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
(Tit 3:7) 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Rom 5:9) 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

It's a trifecta, we are justified by His grace, by His blood, and by faith. None interfering with the other...but none being true without the other.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Tea]

So you are now saying you believe in universalism. Remember we are all ungodly sinners prior to our freely trusting in Him for our salvation.

No, I do not believe in universalism. Everyone is an ungodly sinner, but only some of those ungodly sinners will be saved by God’s grace. You would even have to admit that's true if it depends on their own free will.

Are you going to limit the power of God to save those that believe in Him?

God does only save those who believe in Him. That’s not even in dispute. What is in dispute is that not everyone will be saved, and the reason is because God doesn’t grant the ability to believe to every individual person. It’s only for the elect.

Where does it say that only the elect are ungodly sinners?

Romans 5:8 (ESV)
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

You cited the right verse to answer your own question but did not make the proper application. The target of those who Christ died for is us, the elect, not all of humanity. They are ungodly sinners before they are justified at the appointed time. They continue to be sinners, but now they know God.

Now I know that God is just so He does not judge people for something that they cannot do as that would make Him unjust.

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith...

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If you really wanted God to be just, He wouldn't bother to show mercy to anyone at all because we are all deserving of His wrath.

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned in those verses?

Obviously they aren't mentioned in those verses because Paul chose not to get into every specific detail of salvation. He did in other places, such as the verse I cited before.

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

You are denying God's free will when you say He cannot.

Man is not overruling God's free will man is using his God given free will. But I have to ask, what free will of God is man overruling?

Is God sovereign?
It only needs a YES or NO answer.
If you agree that God is sovereign, as I am sure you must, then you have to agree that God in His free will can create a world where humans sometimes experience Limited Free Will and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur.

Thank you for admitting that humans have a limited free will. As R.C. Sproul once said, when our will runs up against God's, we lose. By that definition, human free will is NOT free in a libertarian sense.

Of course He holds us accountable for our sin. That is why we should confess our known and unknown sins. Don't you do that?

Yes, I confess my sins that I know Christ has already paid for.

The bible is clear that we must believe B4 we are born again.

The Bible says otherwise.

John 6:65 (ESV)
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Philippians 1:29 (ESV)
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake.

I challenge you to provide just one verse that tells us belief precedes being born again.

Your view is wrong and not biblical. What you are presenting is that faith in Christ Jesus is not required for salvation as God will give you faith after you are saved.

Of course faith in Christ is required for salvation. How else can God credit a person's faith as righteousness without having our sin imputed to Christ and His righteousness to us? That's what propitiation is all about.

I notice that you jump to these conclusions about what Calvinists believe when it's really not what they believe at all.

The Calvinist asks: “How shall they believe if they have not been regenerated?” whereas Christianity asks: “How shall they believe if they have not heard?” Romans 10:14; John 20:31

God will find a way to bring the Gospel message to His elect. Hearing the word is the way by which the elect respond to the light.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Silverhair]

No, I do not believe in universalism. Everyone is an ungodly sinner, but only some of those ungodly sinners will be saved by God’s grace. You would even have to admit that's true if it depends on their own free will.

To quote you "Yes, Christ died for ungodly sinners. That is descriptive of the elect whom He has redeemed from out of the world." Since we were all ungodly sinners prior to our salvation and as you said Christ died from those ungodly sinners and you have said He only died for the elect then that leads to universalism.

Those ungodly sinners that freely trust in God will be saved but just as we see in scripture. But your view does not agree with scripture does it.

God does only save those who believe in Him. That’s not even in dispute. What is in dispute is that not everyone will be saved, and the reason is because God doesn’t grant the ability to believe to every individual person. It’s only for the elect.

Where do you get that silly idea from "God doesn’t grant the ability to believe to every individual person. It’s only for the elect." That is just another of the false teachings that we see from calvinism.

You keep coming up with calvinism rather than bible views. From your posts it is clear that you do not understand or accept the word of God.

You cited the right verse to answer your own question but did not make the proper application. The target of those who Christ died for is us, the elect, not all of humanity. They are ungodly sinners before they are justified at the appointed time. They continue to be sinners, but now they know God.

The proper application of a verse is what the verse says not what your calvinist teachers tell you it means. As long as you follow their false teachings you will never understand the word of God.

Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus, .... so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, ... but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly.

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all...

Now you will have to do your calvinist dance to avoid the obvious meaning of these verses.

If you really wanted God to be just, He wouldn't bother to show mercy to anyone at all because we are all deserving of His wrath.

God is just and because He is just He judges people for their sins. Those that have freely trusted in Him have had their sins covered so God can show mercy those that have rejected Him will stand condemned by their sins.
Just as it says here:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As the verse shows those that reject God will be condemned those that have freely trusted in Him will be saved.

Do you not believe the verses I posted?

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith...

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Obviously they aren't mentioned in those verses because Paul chose not to get into every specific detail of salvation. He did in other places, such as the verse I cited before.

When does the Holy Spirit renew a person @Tea? Paul was good enough to tell us in clear text.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph_4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Thank you for admitting that humans have a limited free will. As R.C. Sproul once said, when our will runs up against God's, we lose. By that definition, human free will is NOT free in a libertarian sense.

Of course we have limited free will why would you think otherwise? Can we flap our arms and fly or can we save ourselves? God have given man the free will with which to make real choices up to and including the most important one. Will he choose to trust in God or reject God.

Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors such as creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message, etc. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options. This perspective asserts that agents can act freely and are morally responsible for their actions, as they have the power to choose among different possibilities.

If you do not agree with this definition of free will then you do not understand what free will is.

What Sproul is speaking in regard to calvinist determinism not biblical God given free will.

Yes, I confess my sins that I know Christ has already paid for.

Good to hear.

I challenge you to provide just one verse that tells us belief precedes being born again.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Of course faith in Christ is required for salvation. How else can God credit a person's faith as righteousness without having our sin imputed to Christ and His righteousness to us? That's what propitiation is all about.

I notice that you jump to these conclusions about what Calvinists believe when it's really not what they believe at all.

I did a search of all the bibles I have on my system and did not find a single verse that says our sin was imputed to Christ. Could you point that one out for me.

What I did find was that righteousness was imputed to believers and we were considered blessed by that

“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

How many times have we seen or heard calvinists say this, “Faith is a gift." Thus, election is unconditional because man cannot have it unless God gives it.
And then they will point to Eph 2:8-9 as a proof text.

God will find a way to bring the Gospel message to His elect. Hearing the word is the way by which the elect respond to the light.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

You keep making the same logical error. God has reached out to all humanity not just your "special" group. My question for you is how do you know you are in that group. Even your faith is not your own.

No one is elect until they are in Christ the "Elect One".

Of course the cross is foolish to those that are perishing if they did not think that then they would have trusted in God.

God will find a way to reach those that seek Him.

 

[Tea]

Since we were all ungodly sinners prior to our salvation and as you said Christ died from those ungodly sinners and you have said He only died for the elect then that leads to universalism.

Universalism would be true if Christ died for every ungodly sinner, but we also know that many ungodly sinners will remain lost. Therefore, we can conclude that Christ died for only some ungodly sinners. Nobody on their own can choose to stop being an ungodly sinner.

Hebrews 10:16 (ESV)
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds.”

It is an act of God, and no prior human action is involved.

Where do you get that silly idea from "God doesn’t grant the ability to believe to every individual person. It’s only for the elect."

I get that "silly idea" from Jesus' own teachings.

Now you will have to do your calvinist dance to avoid the obvious meaning of these verses.

The obvious meaning of those verses has a context. In all cases, the audience being addressed is believers, not every human being indiscriminately. If I write a letter to the members of Congress, the contents of the letter have nothing to do with any other group.

Do you not believe the verses I posted?

I believe the verses you posted. I don't believe the application you're making.

It's true that the free gift of God is eternal life. Not every single human being, but for the audience being addressed—the believers. The elect.

It is true that a man is justified by faith. That is exactly what happens to the elect.

It is true that he who hears His word and believes has eternal life. That is exactly what the elect do after they have been born again.

When does the Holy Spirit renew a person @Tea? Paul was good enough to tell us in clear text.

Yes, he was, and he did tell us in other places. I'm not going to demand that all answers be given in one single verse. In some cases, God chose to wait thousands of years before providing further revelation.

Romans 16:24-26 (ESV)
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith.

If you do not agree with this definition of free will then you do not understand what free will is.

I understand the biblical definition of free will.

Without divine intervention, man is only free to do what his sinful heart desires to do.

Without divine intervention, every man will always reject the possibility of doing what is pleasing to God.

Without divine intervention, man is still going to be held responsible for their actions.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Again, none of those verses tell us that belief precedes being born again. All they are is a description of what the elect do.

I did a search of all the bibles I have on my system and did not find a single verse that says our sin was imputed to Christ. Could you point that one out for me.

You won't find it in your Bible because "imputation" is a theological term.

1 Peter 2:24 (ESV)
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

How many times have we seen or heard calvinists say this, “Faith is a gift." Thus, election is unconditional because man cannot have it unless God gives it.

If we have to will ourselves to come to faith, then it's not really a gift—it's something that we have to work for.

Romans 9:16 (ESV)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

My question for you is how do you know you are in that group. Even your faith is not your own.

The fact that I have faith at all means that I'm part of the elect, and so are you. It's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Of course the cross is foolish to those that are perishing if they did not think that then they would have trusted in God.

They are perishing because God has chosen that they remain in their natural state.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

God will find a way to reach those that seek Him.

Romans 3:11 (ESV)
No one understands; no one seeks for God.

One can only seek Him after they have been born again.

 

[Silverhair]

Universalism would be true if Christ died for every ungodly sinner, but we also know that many ungodly sinners will remain lost. Therefore, we can conclude that Christ died for only some ungodly sinners. Nobody on their own can choose to stop being an ungodly sinner.

Hebrews 10:16 (ESV)
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds.”

It is an act of God, and no prior human action is involved.



I get that "silly idea" from Jesus' own teachings.



The obvious meaning of those verses has a context. In all cases, the audience being addressed is believers, not every human being indiscriminately. If I write a letter to the members of Congress, the contents of the letter have nothing to do with any other group.



I believe the verses you posted. I don't believe the application you're making.

It's true that the free gift of God is eternal life. Not every single human being, but for the audience being addressed—the believers. The elect.

It is true that a man is justified by faith. That is exactly what happens to the elect.

It is true that he who hears His word and believes has eternal life. That is exactly what the elect do after they have been born again.



Yes, he was, and he did tell us in other places. I'm not going to demand that all answers be given in one single verse. In some cases, God chose to wait thousands of years before providing further revelation.

Romans 16:24-26 (ESV)
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith.



I understand the biblical definition of free will.

Without divine intervention, man is only free to do what his sinful heart desires to do.

Without divine intervention, every man will always reject the possibility of doing what is pleasing to God.

Without divine intervention, man is still going to be held responsible for their actions.



Again, none of those verses tell us that belief precedes being born again. All they are is a description of what the elect do.



You won't find it in your Bible because "imputation" is a theological term.

1 Peter 2:24 (ESV)
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.



If we have to will ourselves to come to faith, then it's not really a gift—it's something that we have to work for.

Romans 9:16 (ESV)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.



The fact that I have faith at all means that I'm part of the elect, and so are you. It's not as complicated as you seem to think.



They are perishing because God has chosen that they remain in their natural state.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.



Romans 3:11 (ESV)
No one understands; no one seeks for God.

One can only seek Him after they have been born again.

@Tea I have pointed out your obvious errors through biblical texts and you keep responding with your errant calvinist views.

When you cannot or rather will not believe the word of God then we have reached an impasse.

So you follow your calvinism and I will follow the word of God.

 

[Tea]

When you cannot or rather will not believe the word of God then we have reached an impasse.

Indeed, we have reached an impasse. But that’s fine. We will agree to disagree.