Do We Have Free-Will?

[Miss E]

Miss E; It takes an enormous amount of intellectual dishonesty to chastise me to not misconstrue your words (I did not), and in the next breath misconstrue my words to mean something I clearly did not say.

You have demanded folks answer you directly. I have and you have ignored my questions to you and continually distort and misconstrue my answers.

I had hoped you were willing to have a respectful debate. I see now you only want to vent your opinions and ignore and attack all that disagree with you.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Bye Bye

I was respectful, you just don't like being pointed out how wrong your view of God is. Like he would MAKE his children worship or follow him (EXACTLY what you are saying btw!!). That is not a God of love, that is a God of manipulation.

Good Day Sir.

 

[Miss E]

Do you believe that God, Holy Spirit, knows exactly how much “nudging” it will take to bring someone to Christ? Yes or No, please.

Do you believe God, Holy Spirit, has the the ability to exert whatever effort it would take to “nudge” each of us to Christ? Yes or No, please.

@canadyjd

I wasn't ignoring you, I simply forgot you had asked these questions as they were earlier in this thread. My apologies.

God knows everything, so to answer your question. YES. But we still choose to Accept or Not

It doesn't matter how much 'nudging' God does for us if a sinner decides to go his own way and not choose God, HE CAN.

I don't accept, will NEVER accept, that God FORCES us to love or hate Him, we make that choice ourselves. PERIOD.

 

[AustinC]

Do you believe that God, Holy Spirit, knows exactly how much “nudging” it will take to bring someone to Christ? Yes or No, please.

Do you believe God, Holy Spirit, has the the ability to exert whatever effort it would take to “nudge” each of us to Christ? Yes or No, please.

@canadyjd

I wasn't ignoring you, I simply forgot you had asked these questions as they were earlier in this thread. My apologies.

God knows everything, so to answer your question. YES. But we still choose to Accept or Not

It doesn't matter how much 'nudging' God does for us if a sinner decides to go his own way and not choose God, HE CAN.

I don't accept, will NEVER accept, that God FORCES us to love or hate Him, we make that choice ourselves. PERIOD.

The Bible tells us that we, by nature, are in rebellion toward God. We choose our prison of sin.
The Bible also tells us that when we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we have no capacity to choose freedom in Christ. Dead people cannot choose.
Instead, God must choose to give us life and give us faith to believe. It is only after God's work that the Christian has the capacity to choose how we will obey our King.
Where you seem to stumble is in thinking you had the capacity to choose God while you were still dead.

 

[Miss E]

The Bible tells us that we, by nature, are in rebellion toward God. We choose our prison of sin.
The Bible also tells us that when we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we have no capacity to choose freedom in Christ. Dead people cannot choose.
Instead, God must choose to give us life and give us faith to believe. It is only after God's work that the Christian has the capacity to choose how we will obey our King.
Where you seem to stumble is in thinking you had the capacity to choose God while you were still dead.

Give me scripture on that claim then. I provided various scripture about how we DO have a choice.

I'll point out again the scripture:

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” (John 7:17-19)

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

 

[Miss E]

Another thing, take this for instance.

If I tell you. "Sir, you cannot have this dollar unless I give you the ability to pick it up."

You're basically giving GOD the power to give you life or give you death, which, in all extremes, is saying that God PICKS who HE wants to be HIS children. We are robots, we have no choice, we can never be able to choose to serve God ever in our lives.

That sounds like a dictator God to me. And our God is Love. He does not force anyone to do anything, we make those choices, we make the choice whether we sin or whether we live righteously.

 

[Miss E]

Also. I am new here and I didn't realize we had a section for 'all denominations'. I don't just want Baptist's opinions because apparently I allign myself with a bunch of anti-baptists since the baptist church I attend teach free will. Silly me for figuring every baptist believed in that!!

Could an @ADMIN move this board to the 'all denominations' section please?

 

[Van]

The who so ever wills are those to whom God granted saving faith and enabled their wills!

Yet another false assertion without support from scripture. The "T" in the TULIP is as bogus as a Three Dollar Bill.
The "gift of faith" is yet another false assertion without support from scripture. The "I" of the TULIP is as bogus as a Three dollar bill.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, if I read your comment correctly, you are saying that “WHOSOEVER”, really means “those I (God) decide will be saved.” IOW you have no choice in the matter. Is this your claim????
Just to be clear, you had NO choice in whether you would accept Christ or not; it was ALL His doing?
No question as to who SAVES, only whether YOU had the choice to accept or deny His offer.

Someone earlier compared this to a man in a pit. He cannot get out by himself, so he NEEDS help to get free. The man is a Jew, & another man, a gentile, throws a rope to him to climb out.
Pit-man sees that his potential rescuer is a gentile, so he refuses to give the gentile the satisfaction of “saving” a Jew.
It’s Pit-man’s choice to either be rescued or stand his ground - HIS CHOICE!! The offer of life is there, but Pit-man must grab the rope & start climbing if he wishes to be saved, & all the gentile’s rope pulling is futile if Pit-man chooses not to grasp the rope!!!!

God choose out for Himself a people group from lost humanity, in order to redeem them and show off His mercy and Grace!

I did not deserve salvation, but did deserve to be Hell bound!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false assertion without support from scripture. The "T" in the TULIP is as bogus as a Three Dollar Bill.
The "gift of faith" is yet another false assertion without support from scripture. The "I" of the TULIP is as bogus as a Three dollar bill.

Each point in TULIP can be found and supported in the scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

Also. I am new here and I didn't realize we had a section for 'all denominations'. I don't just want Baptist's opinions because apparently I allign myself with a bunch of anti-baptists since the baptist church I attend teach free will. Silly me for figuring every baptist believed in that!!

Could an @ADMIN move this board to the 'all denominations' section please?

Its just that you are discussing this theological point mainly here with Calvinistic Baptists!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible tells us that we, by nature, are in rebellion toward God. We choose our prison of sin.
The Bible also tells us that when we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we have no capacity to choose freedom in Christ. Dead people cannot choose.
Instead, God must choose to give us life and give us faith to believe. It is only after God's work that the Christian has the capacity to choose how we will obey our King.
Where you seem to stumble is in thinking you had the capacity to choose God while you were still dead.

It is very hard even for Christians to understand that in the ultimate sense salvation from start to finish is of the Lord!

 

[MartyF]

I have come to the conclusion that “FREE WIILL” for a human has as many definitions as people offering same!!!
IMHO, if man did not have a CHOICE whether to accept or reject Jesus’ sacrifice, then Jn. 3:16 is null & void. “- - WHOSOEVER WILL - -” is the operative phrase to the scope of His sacrifice. It was not “whosoever I choose - -“. But “WHOSOEVER WILL”!!
Now if you want to get into a semantic tussle, there are all kinds of rabbit trails to explore, but I think the OP was referring to a man’s choice to ACCEPT/ REJECT God’s offer of salvation. Really has nothing to do with whether I can flap my arms and fly!
My apologies if I have misinterpreted the OP.

The problem is that the term free-will does not occur in the Bible. That means that there is no background for the term in the Bible where you can point and say that my version of free-will is wrong. The term is made-up and ends up meaning whatever a person wants it to mean within a very broad range. I've heard another "Calvinist" mention that there is free-will, but his free-will is different from your free-will and everyone ends up arguing into thin-air and getting nowhere.

I don't believe anyone will get anywhere using such vague terms as "free-will".

We are robots, we have no choice, we can never be able to choose to serve God ever in our lives.

For example here, Miss E here truly thinks that the "Calvinists" she is arguing with thinks that everyone is a robot. I don't think she's trying to set up a straw man, but she is! For starters, she hasn't realized that she is most likely talking to those who believe in Compatibilism - not Calvinism.

Compatibilism believes one acts according to one's nature. Some compare it to a horse being attached to a stagecoach. In one case, the stagecoach driver is a sin nature and in the other case it is a spirit nature. Are the horses robots? Are the horses forced? Both of the answers are no. Of course, it isn't a perfect analogy so please don't try to make it into one.

So, those who believe in Compatibilism do believe we make choices. We make those choices, including to have faith in God, based on the nature God have chosen for us. So, those who believe in compatibilism would say that of course we make choices free from apparent compulsion, but those choices have been made based on the nature God has given us.

Now there are variations of Compatibilism, but one isn't going to find out what they are by using vague terms such as "free-will".

 

[Iconoclast]

timtofly,

Yet you have no verse that gives your pagan philosophy.

There are many verses;
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

The definition of free will is a choice that is free of pagan philosophy as an external factor. There is no fate or determinism that goes against one's ability to choose. It is fate and determinism that does not exist. Because they do not exist, then free will does.

God determines all things with infinite wisdom and controls every molecule in the universe.
Man is not sovereign God is.
You are an example of the man-centered carnal philosophy I speak of.

Because of those external non existing factors is the only reason that posters in this thread deny free will. They use pagan ideology to declare it is not real. The very definition of free will declares fate and determinism is not real.

This is not supported by scripture at all.

Perhaps that is not the way they look at it? But that is the basis for limited Atonement, even if they deny that fact.

Particular redemption is the biblical teaching.That would be a thread all by itself.

The Holy Spirit seals all sons of God (all mankind ever to be born) at conception. That is God choosing all, now the all can freely choose God as a response, without fate or determinism.

This is the language of false teaching of man-centered theology, in fact it is in direct opposition to scripture.

That experience plays a factor is what the Bible teaches. The majority of humans never hearing the Gospel once in their life. But that does not limit God. It only limits the individual. God says that the blood of all in darkness will be required at the hands of the church. The church failed the command, not fate or determinism. She failed because she listened to Satan and allowed fate and determinism to infiltrate her very doctrine and theology. The result is denying free will even exist.

This is foolish posting, not based in scripture, but you are welcome to express your feelings.

The false teaching of fate and determinism is as old as the time of Noah. Free will is a modern construct used against reformed theology. It was never used against the ancient teaching of fate and determinism. God even uses human philosophy to correct His wayward church.

Foolish posting...

 

[Miss E]

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

@Iconoclast

That scripture is talking about those who have made the decision to REJECT GOD.

They had to make a choice in order for God to 'give them up'. I believe God will stop trying to persuade men to Love Him when it is apparent they are rejecting the Holy Spirit.

And @Yeshua1 I am very confused about the things you say. IDK If It's because I'm too young or because I am ignorant of what exactly Calvinism means, but please tell me why scipture uses the words 'choose' and 'follow me' (in Jesus' very words) if those do not IMPLY we have a free will. Sure the word 'free will' is not in the Bible but that is a word we have that we use to describe the actions men take in the Bible whether or not they decide to follow after God.

Why are you adding to the scripture this nonsense that God makes us choose to obey Him or not?

Take this. The Angels. The fallen ones specifically, did God make them disobey him and fall from heaven? No. They made that choice.

 

[Miss E]

Its just that you are discussing this theological point mainly here with Calvinistic Baptists!

Well I am DEFINITELY not Calvinistic. When I think of the word Baptist, I think of 'once saved always saved' and the preacher inviting us to choose to follow Jesus.

I'm just wanting to open this up to more denominational people to discuss. I'm getting tired of ya'll Calvinists. lol No offence.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well I am DEFINITELY not Calvinistic. When I think of the word Baptist, I think of 'once saved always saved' and the preacher inviting us to choose to follow Jesus.

I'm just wanting to open this up to more denominational people to discuss. I'm getting tired of ya'll Calvinists. lol No offence.

We are the more mellow group. you would really like having the Presbyterian reformed gang up on you on this!

 

[Miss E]

We are the more mellow group. you would really like having the Presbyterian reformed gang up on you on this!

Was that a joke? Or are you meaning they would agree with me on free will?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

It's a simple question with a VERY simple answer.

What do you think about free will? Do we have it? Or does God essentially control our minds and force us to love or hate Him?

I'm curious, we've been discussing this in another forum, but I wanted to see what the rest of the forum had to say on the subject.

For me, I believe we do. Other-wise. How in the WORLD would we be able to TRULY LOVE GOD. If God MADE us love him, decided for us that we will be saved, how is that truly Love?

I only have one sctipure and that is John 3:16:

"For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have ever-lasting life."

WHOEVER BELIEVES. That implies a conscious decision must be made. Does it not?

Also, I do agree with the belief that God KNOWS who will make the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved and who will not. But just because He KNOWS THAT, doesn't mean He MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE TO FOLLOW HIM.

Please enlighten me with your views. I need to know I'm not alone on this (to me) elementary scriptural truth.

A servant (slave) does not have freewill. God bless His children who obey Him and disciplines those who don't.
We have a self-will, but it is not without judgement. If it were indeed free, there would be no consequence.

[Rom 6:16 KJV] 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[2Pe 2:19 KJV] 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Jas 4:13 ESV - Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"--
Jas 4:14 ESV - yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.
Jas 4:15 ESV - Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."
Jas 4:16 ESV - As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

First expression of self-will by a created being:
[Isa 14:12-15 KJV] 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Free-Will - A Slave
Free-Will - A Slave
By Charles Haddon Spurgeon Dec 2, 1855Scripture: John 5:40Sermon No. 52From: New Park Street Pulpit Volume 1

"It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous"


MARTIN LUTHER: ON THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL;
TO THE VENERABLE MISTER ERASMUS OF ROTTERDAM, 1525.
Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"
Excerpts from the above document
"An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie"
"The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature."
"Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair"
"Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin"
"Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God."

 

[AustinC]

Give me scripture on that claim then. I provided various scripture about how we DO have a choice.

I'll point out again the scripture:

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” (John 7:17-19)

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

You struggle with the fact that all these verses are directed to the chosen people of God. They are not for those who are dead in their trespasses and sins. They are not for those who are not the chosen people.

I have provided many passages. I suspect you didn't read them.

 

[AustinC]

Is the all universal for the whole world or is the all limited to all who believe?

2 Corinthians 5:13-21 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The context shows that the word "all" in this passage is referring to all who believe, not all the entire world.