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R
Roguelet
Guest
What do you not understand about what I have written Petrel? Don't skim post read them so you can understand them.
I wrote that spanking is a small part of child training, it is done mostly in the early stages of life and if done consistantly you will have to do so much less later. I already mentioned most if not more aspects to other ways to deal with raising children. And like I said 4 times now SPANKING is for Deliberate Disobedience Only I focused on spanking since this is the most COMMON ERROR parents make when teaching children.
Most parents make rules but they HARDLY if ever inforce them. Time out and reasoning will NOT work with a 1,2,3 or even 4 year old. there is NO other way to get a child to have first time obedience ( unless they are very submissive by nature to begin with, sorry but I didn't get those kind ) unless there is some kind of consistant firmness which God said should be the " Rod ". Of course if you never make any rules you never have to inforce them. But in the long run they will have to obey someones rules in society. then what ?
I know a family like this, they have 7 kids. I have never heard them tell their children NO about anything, they coddle to their needs, there is constant fighting or crying going on in the home I can hear it everytime I call the mom. The youngest when in the nursery is ALWAYS crying and she is now two and still cries. (My kids NEVER cried in the nursery, if they did I would deal with it). If you say NO to her which i have done many times she throws a fit. She takes things away from other kids in the nursery and gets mad when you correct her. Most of the 7 kids are afraid of people as they are home schooled and are mostly around each other and no one else but their own family all the time. They are having rebellion issues with their 14 year old son. WONDER WHY ?
Oh yeah their dog is very disobedient too. We can't stand the huge lab jumping on us and sniffing us constantly without being called off every time we go over.
So from the families I have absurbed who's kids run and control the home ( child centered homes )to kids who's parents run and control the home ( parent centered homes ). It is the kids from the parent centered homes who have the best behaved kids !
I have a feeling you too do not have children
I wrote that spanking is a small part of child training, it is done mostly in the early stages of life and if done consistantly you will have to do so much less later. I already mentioned most if not more aspects to other ways to deal with raising children. And like I said 4 times now SPANKING is for Deliberate Disobedience Only I focused on spanking since this is the most COMMON ERROR parents make when teaching children.
Most parents make rules but they HARDLY if ever inforce them. Time out and reasoning will NOT work with a 1,2,3 or even 4 year old. there is NO other way to get a child to have first time obedience ( unless they are very submissive by nature to begin with, sorry but I didn't get those kind ) unless there is some kind of consistant firmness which God said should be the " Rod ". Of course if you never make any rules you never have to inforce them. But in the long run they will have to obey someones rules in society. then what ?
I know a family like this, they have 7 kids. I have never heard them tell their children NO about anything, they coddle to their needs, there is constant fighting or crying going on in the home I can hear it everytime I call the mom. The youngest when in the nursery is ALWAYS crying and she is now two and still cries. (My kids NEVER cried in the nursery, if they did I would deal with it). If you say NO to her which i have done many times she throws a fit. She takes things away from other kids in the nursery and gets mad when you correct her. Most of the 7 kids are afraid of people as they are home schooled and are mostly around each other and no one else but their own family all the time. They are having rebellion issues with their 14 year old son. WONDER WHY ?
Oh yeah their dog is very disobedient too. We can't stand the huge lab jumping on us and sniffing us constantly without being called off every time we go over.
So from the families I have absurbed who's kids run and control the home ( child centered homes )to kids who's parents run and control the home ( parent centered homes ). It is the kids from the parent centered homes who have the best behaved kids !
I have a feeling you too do not have children
R
Roguelet
Guest
Makes sense to me
I agree with this paragraph for the most. The trouble is this is not what you started out saying--you started out saying that parents ought to use spanking as a routine first-line form of discipline and parents that use other methods are being wishy-washy.
If this is not what you think, then you need to moderate your rhetoric before people challenge it rather than getting everyone agitated and then telling us what you mean.
R
Roguelet
Guest
Petrel wrote
My OP
No I didn't ! where is the quote from me saying that ? This is what I wrote to start the converstaion going which was a spin off on the capital punishment thread I was writing on. and another thread where a mother said she was having trouble with disciplining her child. I knew fare well when starting this post that I would probably be dealing with all the others aspects of child rearing, not just spanking. I wanted to see what others had to say, and to see how many agreed. ( isn't that how most post start ? ) I think most people who have kids got the idea of what I was saying, I know a 17 year old who's was raised the way I mentioned did.
My OP
No I didn't ! where is the quote from me saying that ? </font>[/QUOTE]Your opening post implies that parents who don't spank are doing a lousy job.
You disagreed outright that spanking should be a last resort.
Not so...........</font>[/QUOTE]In response to Thankful's post saying that she has disciplined her children and grandchildren without spanking:
To my reply that many forms of discipline can be used including spanking but that spanking should not be the automatic response:
Maybe you need to take a step back and evaluate your posting style if a friendly discussion was what you were after. You come off very confrontational.
R
Roguelet
Guest
Discipline entails many aspect of child rearing I can see where you are having trouble.
The word discipline means " to train mentally, morally and physically by instruction, control, and exercise. " etc. etc.
Of course I disagreed with spanking as being only used for a last resort. And Christian author like James Dobson, Richard Fugate, Chuck Swindal, and probably most Pastors would say the same thing I have said that it should be done for Direct Willful Disobedience But hey what do they know ? God put it in his word for a reason. I guess he should have left all those verses out. Dr. Spock in... God out.....?
I'm sure lots of parents have raised their kids without spanking probably 75% And these kids may have by Gods grace came out fine. But I bet there is more strife and problems with these kids raising them along the way than there would be if it was done properly. Like my friend with 7 kids. i'd hate to be in that househould every day, I already know i am not too thrilled being in the nursery with that one
By the way " RAISING " and " TRAINING " are not the same thing. Every child gets raised not all children get trained according to Prov.22:6
I'm sorry if stating facts gets you upset. I have been attacked by you and others by you misquoting my words and saying I am mean for obeying Gods commands on raising kids.
By the way you still haven't told me if you had any kids ?
Just like a single person who has never been married giving advice on marriage. Ironic isn't it ?
[ October 20, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Roguelet ]
The word discipline means " to train mentally, morally and physically by instruction, control, and exercise. " etc. etc.
Of course I disagreed with spanking as being only used for a last resort. And Christian author like James Dobson, Richard Fugate, Chuck Swindal, and probably most Pastors would say the same thing I have said that it should be done for Direct Willful Disobedience But hey what do they know ? God put it in his word for a reason. I guess he should have left all those verses out. Dr. Spock in... God out.....?
I'm sure lots of parents have raised their kids without spanking probably 75% And these kids may have by Gods grace came out fine. But I bet there is more strife and problems with these kids raising them along the way than there would be if it was done properly. Like my friend with 7 kids. i'd hate to be in that househould every day, I already know i am not too thrilled being in the nursery with that one
By the way " RAISING " and " TRAINING " are not the same thing. Every child gets raised not all children get trained according to Prov.22:6
I'm sorry if stating facts gets you upset. I have been attacked by you and others by you misquoting my words and saying I am mean for obeying Gods commands on raising kids.
By the way you still haven't told me if you had any kids ?
Just like a single person who has never been married giving advice on marriage. Ironic isn't it ?
[ October 20, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Roguelet ]
Where was God in the paragraph? I saw a bunch of men, and I can't say I think they are an infallible bunch of men either.
Your friend with seven kids does not sound like the ideal example of someone disciplining properly without spanking, so don't make that comparison.I'm sure lots of parents have raised their kids without spanking probably 75% And these kids may have by Gods grace came out fine. But I bet there is more strife and problems with these kids raising them along the way than there would be if it was done properly. Like my friend with 7 kids. i'd hate to be in that househould every day, I already know i am not too thrilled being in the nursery with that one
Likewise, I can say that from my experience parents who spank a lot cause more resentment on their children's part and have a worse relationship with them. In the end, my opinion is as good as yours.
I can't say I'm upset. And if you think this is an attack, you need to try being a theistic evolutionist here.
You still haven't told me how it's any of your business.
hopefullyhelping
New Member
How about this, if you spank your children regularly some say that you are teaching the child violence. There are times when a spanking is the answer but is it the last resort or is it the first thing you do.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Well,
Dobson also recommends "a firm thump on the head," which can land you in court for abuse in some states. So, while I admire Dr. Dobson on some things - I think he is otu of line on this one.
From "The Institute for First Amendment Studies" "many sociologists believe that spanking indicates that the parent is out of control, not the child. Even dog trainers teach that one should never strike a dog, lest that dog learns to bite in self-defense. Is a child any different"
Dobson also recommends "a firm thump on the head," which can land you in court for abuse in some states. So, while I admire Dr. Dobson on some things - I think he is otu of line on this one.
From "The Institute for First Amendment Studies" "many sociologists believe that spanking indicates that the parent is out of control, not the child. Even dog trainers teach that one should never strike a dog, lest that dog learns to bite in self-defense. Is a child any different"
R
Roguelet
Guest
Again we are getting advice from people who do not have any children PLEEEEZE
Tell you what your adive would mean so much if you guys actually raised a few
Again God is wrong when he said chasten a child with the rod. But " sociologists " are right ! I never said hit or strike a child or dog. The RUMP is the appropiate place to spank on a child I know it says somewhere in the Bible that this is the place to spank. Dang I wish I had that book it had so many bible verses. A couple of stings on the rump never hurt a child or casued him to hurt others. I guess you didn't read my post where my children were never bullies and showed respect to others ? Who ever said the parent is out of control ? read all the post again being in control is the biggest point of discipline. Do not discipline out of anger. It the parent who never spanks who gets ANGRY since they have NO other resorses that WORK !
Tell you what your adive would mean so much if you guys actually raised a few
From the evidence I've seen the only person whose opinion you consider valid is your own. Thankful has several children and eight grandchildren, and you spurned her opinion outright.
I don't think anyone here has said that you should never spank ever. I don't know why you keep claiming we think God is wrong. We think you're wrong, but then, you're not God!
T
TexasSky
Guest
Rogulet,
First - The word rod in the old testament was used interchangably with discipline. It did not always actually mean "rod". Job referred to the tribulations he went through with the words, "Take this rod from me."
Proverbs actually used the words, "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride;"
It also used words like, "A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back." Are you also advocating beating people you think are foolish? What type of rod do you recommend? Metal? Wood? Thick? Thin?
Since you are pulling a proverb out, and waving it as a banner of "This is how God said to handle it," let me ask you - - -
Exodus says: 20:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Do you think we should murder everyone who doesn't honor his parents?
It says: Execuse 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ...
But Christ says:
Matthew 5:38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Do you ignore the words of Christ?
Do you endorse the words of Proverbs over the words of Paul? Paul said in Ephesian 6:4 And, ye fathers, proke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
He repeats it in Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not yoru children to anger, lest they be discourged."
First - The word rod in the old testament was used interchangably with discipline. It did not always actually mean "rod". Job referred to the tribulations he went through with the words, "Take this rod from me."
Proverbs actually used the words, "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride;"
It also used words like, "A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back." Are you also advocating beating people you think are foolish? What type of rod do you recommend? Metal? Wood? Thick? Thin?
Since you are pulling a proverb out, and waving it as a banner of "This is how God said to handle it," let me ask you - - -
Exodus says: 20:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Do you think we should murder everyone who doesn't honor his parents?
It says: Execuse 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ...
But Christ says:
Matthew 5:38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Do you ignore the words of Christ?
Do you endorse the words of Proverbs over the words of Paul? Paul said in Ephesian 6:4 And, ye fathers, proke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
He repeats it in Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not yoru children to anger, lest they be discourged."
My parents never spanked me out of anger and never as the first resort. I praise God I had parents that disciplined me. Now looking back I can see that all was done out of love. Every spanking (which were few) was out of my best interest. Children need to know there are rules and authority in life. Every time I was grounded it was for my own good. Praise God they did it. I was actually a decent kid and did not have it done too much because I had things laid out for me from the get-go. Boundaries were sent but my parents were not over strict, but they did expect me to live within the rules they sent and anything they said I was expected to abide by.
R
Roguelet
Guest
Petrel wrote
So I think what I have to say on the subject has MORE credibilty than two people who have no children
I was refering to you and Texassky....Thankful wrote
Well sounds like she flat out said God was wrong since she said all SPANKING which she including as hitting was wrong ( hitting is wrong especially with the hand, proper spanking is with a thin instrument and on the RUMP ). Gods word says otherwise. I am sorry I am sticking up for Gods word which according to you makes me wrong and my " own " opinion. If you actually had children and read the book I recommended you may have a different view. I have read the book and others including sound preachers who have taught on the subject and have seen the results not only in OUR family but others who have the same values.
So I think what I have to say on the subject has MORE credibilty than two people who have no children
R
Roguelet
Guest
Great twisting of Gods words Texas, Christian scholars and Pastor and authors are ALL wrong and you my dear are right.
2 Sam 7:14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER. AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. IF HE COMMIT INIQUITY, I WILL CHASTEN HIM WITH THE ROD OF MEN, AND WITH THE STRIPS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN.
Prov. 13:24 HE THAT SPARETH HIS ROD HATESTH HIS SON: BUT HE THAT LOVESTH HIM CHASTENS HIM BETIMES
Prov 22:15 FOOLISHNESS IS BOUND IN THE HEART OF A CHILD; BUT THE ROD OF CORRECTION SHALL DRIVE IT FAR FROM HIM.
Prov 23:13-14 WITHHOLD NOT CORRECTION FROM THE CHILD: FOR IF THOU BEATEST HIM WITH THE ROD ( no other instrument ) HE SHALL NOT DIE. THOU SHALT BEAT HIM WITH THE ROD AND SHALT DELIVER HIS SOUL FROM HELL.
Prov. 29:15 THE ROD AND REPROOF GIVE WISDOM:BUT A CHILD LEFT TO HIMSELF BRINGETH HIS MOTHER TO SHAME.
2 Sam 7:14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER. AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. IF HE COMMIT INIQUITY, I WILL CHASTEN HIM WITH THE ROD OF MEN, AND WITH THE STRIPS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN.
Prov. 13:24 HE THAT SPARETH HIS ROD HATESTH HIS SON: BUT HE THAT LOVESTH HIM CHASTENS HIM BETIMES
Prov 22:15 FOOLISHNESS IS BOUND IN THE HEART OF A CHILD; BUT THE ROD OF CORRECTION SHALL DRIVE IT FAR FROM HIM.
Prov 23:13-14 WITHHOLD NOT CORRECTION FROM THE CHILD: FOR IF THOU BEATEST HIM WITH THE ROD ( no other instrument ) HE SHALL NOT DIE. THOU SHALT BEAT HIM WITH THE ROD AND SHALT DELIVER HIS SOUL FROM HELL.
Prov. 29:15 THE ROD AND REPROOF GIVE WISDOM:BUT A CHILD LEFT TO HIMSELF BRINGETH HIS MOTHER TO SHAME.
R
Roguelet
Guest
A FEW WORDS FROM JAMES DOBSON ON SPANKING........
James Dobson (born 1936) is an American pediatrician, psychologist,counselor and conservative political activist.
" Pain is a marvelous purifier. . . It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."
From Dare to Discipline, pages 6 and 7
"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted. . . Two or three stinging strokes on the legs or buttocks with a switch are usually sufficient to emphasize the point, 'You must obey me.'"
From The Strong-Willed Child, pp. 53-4.
James Dobson (born 1936) is an American pediatrician, psychologist,counselor and conservative political activist.
" Pain is a marvelous purifier. . . It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."
From Dare to Discipline, pages 6 and 7
"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted. . . Two or three stinging strokes on the legs or buttocks with a switch are usually sufficient to emphasize the point, 'You must obey me.'"
From The Strong-Willed Child, pp. 53-4.
R
Roguelet
Guest
Texassky and Pertel consider this article on LOVING DISCIPLINE
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z--HHbU7ffoJ:www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Parenting/Parenting07_Discipline.html+bible+verses+on+rod+and+chastisement&hl=en
I would love for you guys to read the book I mentioned what the WAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT CHILD TRAINING and give me rebutle on it.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z--HHbU7ffoJ:www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Parenting/Parenting07_Discipline.html+bible+verses+on+rod+and+chastisement&hl=en
I would love for you guys to read the book I mentioned what the WAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT CHILD TRAINING and give me rebutle on it.