Do you believe that there has been millions and millions of years?

[Pastor Larry]

No that's not what I meant. I mean your context premise. If your starting point is not meant to be literal neither can the words around it.

Ah, I see. But how do we know if a passage is meant to be "literal" (a word I don't really like because it is confusing to people)? By the passage itself and the way that it uses words.

Gen 1 is narrative (waw consecutives) and the construction of yom is only ever used of a 24 hour day. That indicates that it is "literal" that is in view.

 

[Pastor Larry]

However if all you can do is say "believe or don't" to those new to the Bible who have questions that you just gloss over or ignore, then count on fewer new members of your congregation.

I don't think we should do this. We should give answers, as we have done here.

Gen. 6:4 - which some of you seem to have ignored - says
"when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them".
Nephilim, "fallen ones" like Shemhazi, an angel of high rank, could most certainly have children by humans.

Not sure how this applies. Perhaps I have missed part of the conversation. However, the "sons of God" in Gen 6 are most likely tyrannical rulers, not angels. There was a discussion on that a while back and I posted a fair amount of information and support. However, I am not sure the relevance of it here.

You seem to pick and choose scripture to support your opinions,

And you don't? I

and even dictate what God can or can't do

I certainly haven't done that. I think we have pointed out that there was only one person there when this happend, and he told us what happened.

One of you says God can't make a second a thousand years?

How could God make a second a thousand years? That is a logical absurdity. "Second" with respect to time has a meaning. A thousand years has a meaning (31536000000 seconds if my math is correct though I didn't figure for leap years). You are saying that God can make 1 equal 31536000000. That is a logical absurdity. God defined years by the passing of time, which is also how seconds are defined.

I think you need to give more serious thought to this, rather than attacking those who present arguments against it.

As for Cain and Nod - I see Abel, Cain and Seth. Cain went to Nod before Seth was born.

Could be, though OT history is not strictly chronological, just modern histories are often not chronological.

Did Cain or Abel marry their sisters and have children before Cain was driven out?

Yes.

Incest?

Strictly speaking, Yes. But it wasn't a problem then. It wasn't forbidden until the law.

Cain spoke of men killing him before Seth was born - what, his unnamed brothers by Adam?

Not necessarily. Living 900 years gives a lot of time for the population to increase.

Did Cain wait in Nod until Seth's children moved there perhaps?

Probably not, but we don't know.

It says Cain went to Nod and went into his wife - then Seth is mentioned. If Cain married a niece by Seth then mention of that would be after mention of Seth, not before.

Not necessarily. Again, OT history, like today's history is not strictly chronological. OT history is actually written to make a point about God. It isn't written to enable us to draw up a timeline.

You are making it up as you go along.

Actually, I think you are the one doing this.

I wish you well but believe you are in error and can't remain with you.

I admit to not reading everything closely, but I haven't seen anything here that shows a six-successive-24-hour day creation to be in error. Perhaps the confidence in your posts is not matched by the substance of them.

 

[Alcott]

That is correct unless it's paired with an ordinal number. Then it always means a 24 hour day. Not to mention that "evening and morning" would mean a 24 hour day as well.

Where I am-- 33 degrees N latitude, 97 degrees W longitude-- "sunrise" was 7:35 a.m. (CDT), "sunset" will be 7:36 p.m.; tomorrow those times will be 7:34 a.m. and 7:36 p.m.; Wednesday they will be 7:33 a.m. and 7:37 p.m.

24 hours <> [is not equal to] every evening and morning, or the Jewish system of days, 'sunset to sunset.' Why is God not perfect? Or are the scriptures not perfect? Or is there any difference?

 

[Marcia]

Where I am-- 33 degrees N latitude, 97 degrees W longitude-- "sunrise" was 7:35 a.m. (CDT), "sunset" will be 7:36 p.m.; tomorrow those times will be 7:34 a.m. and 7:36 p.m.; Wednesday they will be 7:33 a.m. and 7:37 p.m.

24 hours <> [is not equal to] every evening and morning, or the Jewish system of days, 'sunset to sunset.' Why is God not perfect? Or are the scriptures not perfect? Or is there any difference?

No matter when sunrise and sunset are, they still happen within the context of a day. Genesis 1 does not say that the days and nights were even (though they could have been then), only that there was morning and then there was evening, so we know it is a literal day with light and darkness both occurring.

 

[Alcott]

Has the claim not been made more than once in this thread that 'day in Genesis 1 never means anything other than 24 hours?'

 

[Pastor Larry]

Has the claim not been made more than once in this thread that 'day in Genesis 1 never means anything other than 24 hours?'

Yes, and the evidence has not even been touched. Show us a similar use of yom in the OT that means anything other than 24 hours.

As for your GPS coordinates there, not sure what that was about. No matter what time the sun rises or sets in your neighborhood, that doesn't have any affect on this discussion.

 

[Alcott]

What it shows is that the sunset-to-sunset 'day' can be more than 24 hours (1440 minutes), or, after the summer solstice, then fewer than 24 hours. Therefore a day is not fixed at 24 hours.

ed. And I specified my coordinates as another example; my 'day' is probably not the same as your 'day,' thus showing day is defined only arbitrarily-- points I have used in arguing with sabbatarians; in particular, arguing that if you are far enough north or south, a day-- when the sun disappears till it reappears again-- can be days, weeks, or months.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What it shows is that the sunset-to-sunset 'day' can be more than 24 hours (1440 minutes), or, after the summer solstice, then fewer than 24 hours. Therefore a day is not fixed at 24 hours.

Of course not. I think we all know that (if we passed the 7th grade ... or graduated from public school which is about a 7th grade education). I think we all recognize that the length of a day varies slightly, though sunrise and sunset times aren't really the way you figure that.

But that doesn't really help the argument since the "24 hour day" is what is recognized as a solar day.

in particular, arguing that if you are far enough north or south, a day-- when the sun disappears till it reappears again-- can be days, weeks, or months.

I thought you needed the sun to measure days. Now you are telling us that even if the sun doesn't rise or set, you know what a day is, and week which is measured in days, etc. I think you just undermined your whole argument.

 

[Marcia]

Has the claim not been made more than once in this thread that 'day in Genesis 1 never means anything other than 24 hours?'

I think when people say that, they mean a day as we know it; a few minutes here and there is not the issue. We are talking about the literal day as in today is Monday and tomorrow is Tuesday vs. saying a day is millions of years.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think when people say that, they mean a day as we know it; a few minutes here and there is not the issue. We are talking about the literal day as in today is Monday and tomorrow is Tuesday vs. saying a day is millions of years.

So day one was Sunday?

 

[Alcott]

in particular, arguing that if you are far enough north or south, a day-- when the sun disappears till it reappears again-- can be days, weeks, or months.

I thought you needed the sun to measure days. Now you are telling us that even if the sun doesn't rise or set, you know what a day is, and week which is measured in days, etc. I think you just undermined your whole argument.

Not in the least. Does the Bible define a day as (1)24 hours (1440 minutes), or (2)from setting of sun to setting of sun?

 

[Alcott]

So day one was Sunday?

On which side of the International Date Line?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not in the least. Does the Bible define a day as (1)24 hours (1440 minutes), or (2)from setting of sun to setting of sun?

I don't think the Bible sets out a formal definition for the length of a day. There are some things so plainly obvious that no formal definition is needed. It is assumed that everyone knew what they were talking about.

But even at that, the setting of the sun is sufficiently uniform throughout the year, balancing out from one season to another that your argument doesn't hold water. The very acknowledgement that days still exist when the sun doesn't set in a particular location indicates the point.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

in particular, arguing that if you are far enough north or south, a day-- when the sun disappears till it reappears again-- can be days, weeks, or months.



Not in the least. Does the Bible define a day as (1)24 hours (1440 minutes), or (2)from setting of sun to setting of sun?

Still based on the sun. Sun down to sun down. Measured by the sun. So day one there was no sun. Only light and darkness. So light has to be independent of a source. But we don't seen that in nature. A source always produces light like the sun or stars. But they weren't created until later. Hmmmmm....

 

[Alcott]

Then a day is not necessarily one complete rotation of the earth... is it?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Then a day is not necessarily one complete rotation of the earth... is it?

I would say it was which makes Genesis problematic.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You think God needs a sun to produce light or measure 24 hours?

How is a day measured on the space station? Sunrise and sunset have no real meanign to day up there.

What about the existence of light from a flourescent tube? Clearly, light can be produced without the sun.

 

[Alcott]

Don't we learn something new every day!... er, every 24 hours....er, every sunset-to-sunset... maybe all of them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You think God needs a sun to produce light or measure 24 hours?

How is a day measured on the space station? Sunrise and sunset have no real meanign to day up there.

What about the existence of light from a flourescent tube? Clearly, light can be produced without the sun.

I'm saying its how man determines time which is reflected in Genesis account. If you lived on mars your day would be slightly longer. God doesn't need human convention. But genesis is in use of human convention which is why its problematic.

 

[Me4Him]

Then a day is not necessarily one complete rotation of the earth... is it?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

How about a thousand rotations of the "sun"?? :laugh:

Daniel's 70 week prophecy represents a "year" for each "day".

Of course we use 24 hours for a "day".

Genesis doesn't give us a "context" to judge how long each creation day represented.