Do you believe the Church started at Pentecost?

[olegig]

If Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in Christ (I assume general agreement on this), how were they then not members of the body of Christ? What "body" are they members of?

Your premise "saved by grace through faith in Christ" has a familiar ring to it; however it is hard to find a basis in scripture for its application to the OT saint.

If it were true, then surely one of the prophets would have told the Israelites, when they were straying, to get back to their faith in Christ.
Can this be found anywhere in the OT?

All we have to go on is what the Book says.
The straying Israelites were told to get back to worshipping God by doing the things God had told them to do which were the works of the law.
Did they keep the law? The Bible says they did.
Keeping the law is not the same as not sinning.

One cannot spread the blood before it was shed.
The OT saint was "saved" from hell by doing the things he/she was instructed to do by God; we see even father Abraham not in heaven (Luke 16) before the blood was spread.

What "body" are they members of?
John the Baptist referrs to himself as a "friend" of the Bridegroom, not as member of the Bride.

 

[Tom Butler]

Greetings, Marcia, hope you are finally digging out and getting around.

Hi, Tom! But Jesus didn't say "again" or imply it. They did not act much like an empowered church by fleeing when Jesus was arrested nor by denying Jesus (Peter).

They certainly didn't act empowered, did they? But for 3 1/2 years up to that point, we didn't see that. And remember that they came back from their missionary trips awestruck that "even the demons were subject to us." So Jesus had, in fact, empowered them. They certainly behaved like an assembly of called-out believers.

I think the church is both invisible - all believers in Christ are his body - and visible in the local church and how it teaches the word, equips believers, and sends out those to evangelize.

You rightly assigned to the local church the responsibility for teaching, equipping and sending. That's because the so-called invisible Church is pretty much useless for carrying out the Great Commission. It never meets, it never sends missionaries, it never teaches the word, and never contributed a dime to kingdom work. It is hopelessly fractured and divided, and filled with error. I fail to find any possible reason for its existence.

I think there is some confusion with the Kingdom, made up of subjects of the King.

What about these verses I posted:

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7


"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." John 16:7

I find no conflict between those verses and my view. Jesus is going, the Holy Spirit is coming.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I never said that people did not have the Holy Spirit in the OT. I have only stated that the being permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon faith was not until the Ascension of Jesus.

These are 2 passages on this that I posted. There are others.


Some of the OT people had the Spirit taken away from them - this is not permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry you misunderstood....I was referring to some NEW Testement people who were filled with the Holy Spirit even before the Ascension of Jesus. I name some of them in my previous post.

 

[Tom Butler]

Marcia, you quoted this earlier and expressed agreement:

The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13—“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” The “one body” spoken of in this verse refers to the Church (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), and Christ is the Head of this body. Spirit baptism is defined in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christ’s body, the Church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.

The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.

The Greek word is "en," which is translated here as "by." But it makes better sense to translate it "in." As, "in one Spirit, we are all baptized into one body." So there goes Spirit baptism out the window. The Holy Spirit doesn't baptize anybody.

What is in view in 12:13 is water baptism. And as we know, water baptism pre-dates Pentecost. It is a pre-requisite for membership in the local body of Christ, of which the assembly at Corinth was one. We know that because that's the way Paul described it in 12:27 "YOU are THE body of Christ.

In the same way, your home church is THE body of Christ. Mine is THE body of Christ.

You suggested that my use of the term "empowered again" was neither implied nor explicit in scripture. I suggested that it is warranted.

What we have is Jesus disciples, early on, casting out demons, healing the sick, preaching and baptizing. Power. Then we have them as wimps when Jesus is arrested and crucified. No power. Then, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes, and suddenly they are bold and fearless. Power again.

 

[olegig]

The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began.

Paul says he was the first member placed in the Body, the Church of God, the Bride of Christ.

 

[RAdam]

When the bible speaks of the Spirit being given after the glorification of Jesus, it speaks of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, such as that came on the apostles on the day of Pentacost.

Had Peter, prior to Pentacost, been without the indwelling Holy Spirit, he would have been unregenerate, unable to see and know Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, and the gospel would have meant nothing to him. Paul stated that the differientiating factor between a regenerate and unregenerate is the indwelling Spirit of God.

 

[kyredneck]

..........Had Peter, prior to Pentacost, been without the indwelling Holy Spirit, he would have been unregenerate, unable to see and know Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, and the gospel would have meant nothing to him. Paul stated that the differientiating factor between a regenerate and unregenerate is the indwelling Spirit of God.

...............................................

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16:17

 

[kyredneck]

Does the Olive Tree in Romans 11 represent the Church? If so, when did the Olive Tree start?

Thank you.

The fact that the Church is built upon the foundation of the prophets and the apostles, with the Christ as the corner stone, shows a continuitiy also.

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture states the following about King David, a man after GOD's own Heart.[1 Samuel 13:14; Acts 13:22]

Psalm51:1-13 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.>>

1. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Strange that King David would pray that GOD not take HIS Holy Spirit from him [King David] unless he[King David] had HIM [the Holy Spirit]!

Another interesting passage that record the words of Our LORD HIMSELF!

Matthew 22:41-46
41. While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42. Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45. If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46. And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

So if King David prays that GOD not take away HIS Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ tells the dispensationalists of HIS day that David prophesied in the Spirit what are we to conclude?

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture teaches

The scripture teaches they received when Jesus breathed on them and the rest in Pentecost. He didn't say gift, but He breathed the Holy Spirit on them after Jesus was glorified to agree with all scripture. I do not disagree with the others having it before the cross, but the scripture clearly teaches that the disciple's and the believers did not receive until after Jesus was glorified. You get gift when you receive the Holy Spirit.

I cannot disagree with the scripture's.

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

I also agree with Marcia that the Holy Spirit before the cross was not a permanent indwelling as David say's

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[OldRegular]

Does the Olive Tree in Romans 11 represent the Church? If so, when did the Olive Tree start?

The Olive Tree represents the true believers of both the Old and New Testament. In the New Testament the true believers are generally called the Church, though reference is made to the church in the wilderness of the Old Testament [Acts 7:38]. Though in Paul's analogy of the Olive Tree he talks about those who were the believing remnant of Israel of the Old Testament the Olive Tree must have started with the first true believer. The Church includes the true believers of all time, and that is a fact!

 

[OldRegular]

The scripture teaches they received when Jesus breathed on them and the rest in Pentecost. He didn't say gift, but He breathed the Holy Spirit on them after Jesus was glorified to agree with all scripture. I do not disagree with the others having it before the cross, but the scripture clearly teaches that the disciple's and the believers did not receive until after Jesus was glorified. You get gift when you receive the Holy Spirit.

I cannot disagree with the scripture's.

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

I also agree with Marcia that the Holy Spirit before the cross was not a permanent indwelling as David say's

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

We need to understand what Jesus Christ said regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit.


John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

While Jesus Christ, GOD Incarnate was on the earth it was apparently not necessary that the Holy Spirit be present.

 

[Marcia]

If Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in Christ (I assume general agreement on this), how were they then not members of the body of Christ? What "body" are they members of?

They are just saved; they are God's people. I'm not sure how one can say they were in a church that they were unaware of - that would make no sense.

 

[OldRegular]

They are just saved; they are God's people. I'm not sure how one can say they were in a church that they were unaware of - that would make no sense.

You are making an unwarranted assumption. The Apostle Paul tells us:

Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul doesn't say exactly what was preached to Abraham but he tells us in another place:

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In Hebrews we have a clue as to what Abraham understood:

Hebrews 11:17-19

17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

[Marcia]

You are making an unwarranted assumption. The Apostle Paul tells us:

Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul doesn't say exactly what was preached to Abraham but he tells us in another place:

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In Hebrews we have a clue as to what Abraham understood:

Hebrews 11:17-19

17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

I don't see how the above scriptures say there was a church in the OT. These are saying they were saved; I've never disagreed with that.

 

[psalms109:31]

Exactly!!

We need to understand what Jesus Christ said regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit.


John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

While Jesus Christ, GOD Incarnate was on the earth it was apparently not necessary that the Holy Spirit be present.

Exactly right they had the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ with them!!

 

[Marcia]

The church was not in the Old Testament, that assembly was from a nation God made from Abraham and gave them the law through Moses. They were to live in a specific land given only to the Hebrews (Jews).



For Gentiles to worship the God of Israel they had to become converts and go through a rigorous process to be part of Israel.


When we come to the New Testament the church was in prototype before Pentecost as Jesus was training the 12 and the 70 and others. But the church is not in the Old Testament. Why?


Matt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”


Throughout the New Testament the church is liken a house built upon a foundation- which happens to be Jesus and those who confess who He is as Peter did. Since one did not (nor could not) confess this in the Old Testament they cannot accurately say the nation of Israel was a church.


It is only in this passage and Mt.18 that a church is first mentioned, and the prevailing view would be His instructions for the future.


The Bible says Jesus is the chief cornerstone, he could not be this until He died and resurrected. It also states the apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church that are laid beside the cornerstone. Which again separates the church being in the Old testament.


Jesus never calls Israel the church but only those who are of Israel that believe he is who he said he is, the messiah.

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp59.htm

 

[OldRegular]

We know from Scripture that people who lived before the sacrifice in time of Jesus Christ are among the redeemed. We know from Scripture that the only means of Salvation is through the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Everyone who has ever been saved has been saved because Jesus Christ offered Himself as the blood sacrifice for sin. That initial promise was first made in the Garden of Eden long before there was Jew or Gentile. As noted above:

Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now we do not know exactly what Abraham knew since Scripture is silent on that but again as noted above:

Hebrews 11:17-19

17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Does the above indicate that the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice the child of promise indicate that this was a type of the actual sacrifice of Jesus Christ to come? It appears to be. As I recall when questioned by Isaac Abraham said:

Genesis 22:8. And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

So it appears that Abraham understood a great deal.

It is obvious that the Church in its New Testament form was non existent in the Old Testament. However, if we accept the fact that the Church constitutes those that are called out from the world for the purpose of GOD then the Church certainly existed in the Old Testament. The Apostle Paul's analogy of the Olive Tree clearly demonstrates this truth.

I will say again: The Church includes the true believers of all time, and that is a fact!

 

[Marcia]

OR, nothing you posted shows that the church existed in the OT.

I Cor. 12:13 states that they (the believers at Corinth) are "baptized into one Spirit." The church is the body of believers baptized into the Spirit, and there was no baptism into the Spirit in the OT. This is certainly not water baptism, of course.

John 1:33
"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'"

Matt 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Acts 1:5
..."for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 11:16
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Being baptized into the Holy Spirit was unknown in the OT; it was not the same when God sent His spirit on the prophets or others, because it was often done only temporarily, and they could have the Spirit taken away. There was not a body of believers in the OT baptized into the Holy Spirit - having the indwelling Holy Spirit upon faith - as there came to be in the NT. There is no language in the OT that I know of about being baptized into the Spirit. This is a NT activity that came only after Jesus.

There is a marked difference in those OT saints who believed God and believers in the NT who are baptized into the Holy Spirit through faith and immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[olegig]

Mt 22 tells of the wedding of the Son and Bride; however the Bride, the Body of Christ, is never mentioned.

But we see several different groups of folks in attendance at the wedding. There are differing groups of servants, there are guests, and John the Baptist calls himself a friend of the Bridegroom.

If one somehow puts all believers in the Body of Christ, which is the Bride, then one is left with no one to be the servants, guests, or friends.

Bottom line,,,,,,,,can't everybody be in the Body.