Do you believe the once saved can again be lost?

[atpollard]

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly that it is possible for a person to fall away. Since that is stated first, deal with it first before you try to explain what comes after. Don't just try to twist or ignore that it is possible for a person to fall away because that doesn't fit your determinist theology. Just acknowledge it.
Free will is the truth. If it is not, salvation is an illusion -- salvation that cannot be accepted or rejected is no salvation at all, and humans are just puppets and robots with god as a puppetmaster. This bears no relation to the God of the Bible. Calvinist determinist fatalism is a lie from the pit of hell. The Old Testament says 'choose life', but you deny that humans can choose, thus you deny scripture. Your position is an affront to the nature of God, Who gives every sentient being the freedom and right to choose. Love without choice is not love but compulsion. If you could force your wife to love you, would you be sure that she actually did?? If you could do such, you might end up with a knife in your back rather than a kiss on the cheek.
I am neither secular nor humanist, nor a deterministic Calvinist whose god has much more in come with Allah than the God of the Bible.

About Satan: Did he have a choice to rebel, or was he compelled to? Was Satan created a sinner, or did he choose to sin and rebel?

Forgive me, I am less than a HACK at Greek, but the first word in Hebrews 6:4 is "ἀδύνατον" (roughly "not possible" or "impossible") and I was under the impression that Greek placed the most important ideas at the beginning (rather than the English subject-verb word order). So isn't the point that the author is trying to emphasize what is IMPOSSIBLE (a second restoration) rather than what is POSSIBLE (falling away)?

[I yield to others with even a modicum of skill in Koine Greek .... it was just an observation.]

 

[canadyjd]

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly that it is possible for a person to fall away. Since that is stated first, deal with it first before you try to explain what comes after.

Hebrews 6 begins with the authors desire to push forward (in understanding) beyond the elementary things of the Christian faith.

He then addresses the issue of people falling away from the faith. He addresses this as an answer to a hypothetical question.

People were leaving the church, no doubt because of the fear of persecution. Will these people, who have openly rejected Christ, be saved?

He answers by saying if such people where Christians and have fallen away, rejected Christ, it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they crucify Christ all over again.

He then uses the analogy of producing fruit (a common analogy in Christianity) saying those who fall away will be burned and close to being cursed.

A key verse in understanding the author’s intention is verse 9.

In verse 9, he says he is convinced of better things concerning them, the things that accompany salvation. Among these things are ministry and perseverance.

There are two ways to understand this passage.

1. A person can indeed lose their salvation. However, if they do, it is impossible to regain it.

2. A person can “appear to be a Christian”, but like tares among wheat, they were never really a part of Christ.

I can reconcile Hebrews 6 with all the passages which tell us a Christian cannot lose salvation.

Not the least of which is Jesus saying his sheep are in the hands of the Father and no one can take them out.

What you cannot reconcile is your belief that a person can lose and regain salvation with Hebrews 6, which clearly states that would be impossible.

I have answered your question directly. Will you now acknowledge that, according to Hebrews 6, if a person loses salvation they can never get it back?

Free will is the truth. If it is not, salvation is an illusion -- salvation that cannot be accepted or rejected is no salvation at all…..

Of course God’s offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ must be accepted.

First, everyone on the planet has already rejected God (Romans 1)

God, in His mercy, has chosen some to redeem, sending God Holy Spirit to draw them, convict them of their sin, convince them of the truth of Jesus and enable them to respond with faith through regeneration.

So yes, they respond with faith in Jesus each and every time God so works in their luves

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Well actually, I got it from you. Clearly you believe that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then 'de-created' the next. I'm somewhat relieved that you don't think that the process can go on indefinitely, but do you really think that the New Birth is reversible?

Well not quite Martin. You had them saved, lost, the saved again. That is not biblical.

What we do see is that people can be saved and then repudiate that salvation and thus be lost. That's biblical or should i say it is for those of us who actually believe what the bible says about it.

So the love of God is "one strike and you're out," is it? And once out, you never get back in again? No, no! God will save His people with an everlasting salvation. Those who fall away permanently show that they were never His to begin with.

What we see in scripture is that God will honour the choices that man freely makes.

Those that have never believed will be lost but to say that those that have believed cannot be lost is not supported in scripture.

You say that "God will save His people with an everlasting salvation." but scripture shows that those that are saved can and some do repudiate God and thus are lost.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, {Jews} He may not spare you {Gentiles} either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, {Jews} severity; but toward you, {Gentiles} goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you {Gentiles} also will be cut off.
Rom_11:23 And they {Jews} also, if they {Jews} do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them {Jews} in again.

Martin were the Jews that were cutoff saved or lost? Are the Gentiles that do not continue in God's goodness saved or lost?

The we have Paul again in
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight;
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul is writing to saved individuals the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse. Col 1:2

We see here again the condition of final salvation is continuing faith.

As believers we know we all still sin and we confess our sins and are forgiven. Those that Heb 6:6 and the prior verse speak of are those that have chosen to repudiate their only means of salvation.

I would think you understood the difference between falling in sin and falling away from trust in God.

 

[canadyjd]

Hebrews 6 begins with the authors desire to push forward (in understanding) beyond the elementary things of the Christian faith.

He then addresses the issue of people falling away from the faith. He addresses this as an answer to a hypothetical question.

People were leaving the church, no doubt because of the fear of persecution. Will these people, who have openly rejected Christ, be saved?

He answers by saying if such people where Christians and have fallen away, rejected Christ, it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they crucify Christ all over again.

He then uses the analogy of producing fruit (a common analogy in Christianity) saying those who fall away will be burned and close to being cursed.

A key verse in understanding the author’s intention is verse 9.

In verse 9, he says he is convinced of better things concerning them, the things that accompany salvation. Among these things are ministry and perseverance.

There are two ways to understand this passage.

1. A person can indeed lose their salvation. However, if they do, it is impossible to regain it.

2. A person can “appear to be a Christian”, but like tares among wheat, they were never really a part of Christ.

I can reconcile Hebrews 6 with all the passages which tell us a Christian cannot lose salvation.

Not the least of which is Jesus saying his sheep are in the hands of the Father and no one can take them out.

What you cannot reconcile is your belief that a person can lose and regain salvation with Hebrews 6, which clearly states that would be impossible.

I have answered your question directly. Will you now acknowledge that, according to Hebrews 6, if a person loses salvation they can never get it back?


Of course God’s offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ must be accepted.

First, everyone on the planet has already rejected God (Romans 1)

God, in His mercy, has chosen some to redeem, sending God Holy Spirit to draw them, convict them of their sin, convince them of the truth of Jesus and enable them to respond with faith through regeneration.

So yes, they respond with faith in Jesus each and every time God so works in their luves

Peace to you

One of the saddest realities of debating scripture is seeing folks refuse to consider another view, or rethink their current view, when confronted with the truth of what scripture actually says.

Once they see the truth, and cannot but confront it, they abandon the debate or deflect or some other tactic to avoid the TRUTH.

Whether or not you believe Hebrews 6 actually means a person can lose their salvation or is an explanation as to why they cannot, there is no denying the specific truth..

… if a person loses their salvation it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they crucify Christ again.

Instead of “once saved, always saved”, you must accept “twice lost, always lost”

Apparently, that is something so frightful to consider, some simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes and say … please don’t let this be true, please don’t let this be true, please don’t let this be true…

And tomorrow they make the same arguments ignoring what they know to be true

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

One of the saddest realities of debating scripture is seeing folks refuse to consider another view, or rethink their current view, when confronted with the truth of what scripture actually says.

Once they see the truth, and cannot but confront it, they abandon the debate or deflect or some other tactic to avoid the TRUTH.

Whether or not you believe Hebrews 6 actually means a person can lose their salvation or is an explanation as to why they cannot, there is no denying the specific truth..

… if a person loses their salvation it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they crucify Christ again.

Instead of “once saved, always saved”, you must accept “twice lost, always lost”

Apparently, that is something so frightful to consider, some simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes and say … please don’t let this be true, please don’t let this be true, please don’t let this be true…

And tomorrow they make the same arguments ignoring what they know to be true

Peace to you

The reason they can't "be renewed to repentance" is that they have insulted the indwelling Holy Spirit forcing Him to leave based on faith in Christ is no longer present. They have commited the ultimate unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

This is not referring to a backslider who strays in sin for a time, they still believe but have lost their way. This is when the chastisement of Lord comes to bring them back.

But the one who abandons Christ as those in Hebrew 6, turning from Christ and going back to temple worship as many were doing under pressure, they have forsaken the only way of salvation.

 

[Charlie24]

The reason they can't "be renewed to repentance" is that they have insulted the indwelling Holy Spirit forcing Him to leave based on faith in Christ is no longer present. They have commited the ultimate unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

This is not referring to a backslider who strays in sin for a time, they still believe but have lost their way. This is when the chastisement of Lord comes to bring them back.

But the one who abandons Christ as those in Hebrew 6, turning from Christ and going back to temple worship as many were doing under pressure, they have forsaken the only way of salvation.

As long as our faith is in Jesus Christ, what He did for us, He will see us through to the end. Nothing can separate us from Him but ourselves.

We must stand fast in true faith to the end, and not let anything turn our faith to other things, faith must be in Him.

 

[Ben1445]

As long as our faith is in Jesus Christ, what He did for us, He will see us through to the end. Nothing can separate us from Him but ourselves.

We must stand fast in true faith to the end, and not let anything turn our faith to other things, faith must be in Him.

It sounds like what has begun in faith must be continued in works, that is the perseverance of the believer. Here is the P in tulip and maybe the thought that I disagree with the most.
Modern reformed say preservation but the original idea was perseverance. That Christians must persevere and if they fall, they were clearly not the elect. It’s a big deal especially in the face of several major reformed teachers falling into sin (rather, living in perpetual sin and having that be revealed).
Paul said he was persuaded that God would keep that which he had committed to God.
Paul taught the Philippians that God, who had begun the work in the believer would perform it til the day of Christ.
I don’t see any loss of salvation. I see that God is able to save.
God knows our frame.
He knows that we need a Saviour. He knows why we need a Saviour. We know that we wait for the redemption of our bodies. There must still be the wretched man with us until we receive the adoption of sons. But with Paul, we should also say, I die daily, and crucify the flesh.

 

[Charlie24]

It sounds like what has begun in faith must be continued in works, that is the perseverance of the believer. Here is the P in tulip and maybe the thought that I disagree with the most.
Modern reformed say preservation but the original idea was perseverance. That Christians must persevere and if they fall, they were clearly not the elect. It’s a big deal especially in the face of several major reformed teachers falling into sin (rather, living in perpetual sin and having that be revealed).
Paul said he was persuaded that God would keep that which he had committed to God.
Paul taught the Philippians that God, who had begun the work in the believer would perform it til the day of Christ.
I don’t see any loss of salvation. I see that God is able to save.
God knows our frame.
He knows that we need a Saviour. He knows why we need a Saviour. We know that we wait for the redemption of our bodies. There must still be the wretched man with us until we receive the adoption of sons. But with Paul, we should also say, I die daily, and crucify the flesh.

There's an old saying that sets the priority, "we work because we are saved, not to get saved."

I believe R/T is gross error and from it comes even a worse error, OSAS.

 

[Ben1445]

There's an old saying that sets the priority, "we work because we are saved, not to get saved."

I believe R/T is gross error and from it comes even a worse error, OSAS.

Perseverance of the saints is the same thing as what you are proposing.
Stated plainly, If they don’t persevere, they are not saints.

 

[Charlie24]

Perseverance of the saints is the same thing as what you are proposing.
Stated plainly, If they don’t persevere, they are not saints.

No, it's not the same. R/T does not allow the departing of faith, it teaches OSAS.

1 Tim. 4:1,

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Free will to choose Christ can be turned to free will to no longer believe in what got you saved, but turn your faith through false teachings to something other than the faith God demands.

 

[Charlie24]

No, it's not the same. R/T does not allow the departing of faith, it teaches OSAS.

1 Tim. 4:1,

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Free will to choose Christ can be turned to free will to no longer believe in what got you saved, but turn your faith through false teachings to something other than the faith God demands.

This should scare the living daylights of us, to check up on our faith to ensure it's in Jesus Christ alone.

Especially when the Scripture says, FEAR, lest you find yourselves coming short of it.

Short of what? The faith in Jesus Christ that God demands for salvation.