Do you believe the once saved can again be lost?

[canadyjd]

If you can't see that we can depart from the faith and it's only through our own faults that we do it, then go ahead and believe it.

I base everything I believe on scripture.

What you said isn’t biblical.

If you want to believe secular philosophy instead of scripture then go ahead and believe it.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I agree and the topic is supremely frustrating.

It seems like half the verses on salvation indicate we must persevere to maintain it, while the other half indicate that the new birth cannot be aborted or forfeited or lost. I could easily make a strong case for Once Saved Always Saved, but could also easily prove that Salvation Can
Be Lost.

Salvation is achieved when we confess Jesus as Lord (we have to act like He is our master for the confession to be authentic) and believe God raised Him from the dead. We must also trust that Jesus died for our personal sins. This is called believing in Jesus Christ. Salvation seems to be a one time event, not a process that can be disrupted and fail to be concluded.

As I repeatedly state, the primary thing is to harshly examine ourselves and decide if we really LOVE God more than anything (pleasures, intoxicants, entertainment, wealth, sex, possessions, family, country, political party, education, military, denomination, music, food, etc.) and we actually obey the commands of Jesus and the instructions in the church epistles.

It is when we struggle to conquer personal sinful indulgences, or realize we have been too gleefully and obliviously backsliding, that the issue of OSAS becomes a burning issue.

Jesus said a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. This freaks me out sometimes, when I survey my past life. How is my fruit? I DO NOT want to hear Jesus say, “I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity.”

How often do today’s Americanized Christian preachers talk about this grim reality of assuming you are going to heaven, but are headed for hell?

In my Christian experience over the last 65+ years I have found that the preaching has become more and more social. Why upset the people by telling them that their sins are not just mistakes that God will overlook.

Have your best life now is the message they want to hear. This fits right in with OSAS as why worry about those sins if you are saved no matter what. It becomes one and done.

 

[easternstar]

We are obviously not going to solve this question here; it has been debated for centuries. However, it is interesting to discuss, and fruitful to do so, in my opinion.
I don't have all the answers. But I do have some beliefs. I believe it is possible to be saved and then willfully forfeit that salvation. What I don't believe is that a person can be saved this week, and then next week lose that salvation, then regain it, and lose it again, etc.

 

[Silverhair]

I base everything I believe on scripture.

What you said isn’t biblical.

If you want to believe secular philosophy instead of scripture then go ahead and believe it.

Peace to you

Scripture says we can walk away so if you believe scripture then why do you not believe that?

 

[Charlie24]

I base everything I believe on scripture.

What you said isn’t biblical.

If you want to believe secular philosophy instead of scripture then go ahead and believe it.

Peace to you

Seems you don't want that responsibility, but you have it!

Nothing to worry about if you keep a constant check on it.

2 Cor. 13:5

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

 

[canadyjd]

Scripture says we can walk away so if you believe scripture then why do you not believe that?

Please provide the passage of scripture that says we (Christians) can walk away… from Christ? From salvation?

I’m willing to discuss any passage of scripture, in context.

My point about Hebrews 6 Is that I have yet to find someone that believes it teaches you can lose salvation that also believes you can never get it back.

And, again, I can reconcile my belief in eternal security with this passage. I have never found someone that believes you can lose salvation that can reconcile all the passages that testify we cannot.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Please provide the passage of scripture that says we (Christians) can walk away… from Christ? From salvation?

I’m willing to discuss any passage of scripture, in context.

My point about Hebrews 6 Is that I have yet to find someone that believes it teaches you can lose salvation that also believes you can never get it back.

And, again, I can reconcile my belief in eternal security with this passage. I have never found someone that believes you can lose salvation that can reconcile all the passages that testify we cannot.

Peace to you

This is the context we need to look at

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Here is a list of what I see as critical words found in Heb 6:4-6

been enlightened G5461

illuminate, make one see or understand (Eph_3:9 WSD

to enlighten spiritually, Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Eph_3:9; Heb_6:4; Heb_10:32 Mounce


have tasted G1089 of the heavenly gift

Metaphorically, to experience, prove, partake of. With the acc. (Heb_6:5) WSD

perception of, experience, Heb_6:4-5; 1Pe_2:3 Mounce


partakers G3353 of the Holy Spirit

As a noun, a partaker (Heb_3:1, Heb_3:14; Heb_6:4; Heb_12:8) WSD

a partaker, Heb_3:1; Heb_3:14; Heb_6:4; Heb_12:8; Mounce


have fallen G3895 away G3895

Used only in Heb_6:6, denoting a falling away, an abandonment. Some have suggested that this word and its noun paráptōma ([G3900], a lapse, error, wrongdoing) indicate errors of weakness, faults or accidents and do not represent deliberate, blameworthy or willful sin, contending that this would be expressed by parabaínō (G3845), to willfully transgress. However, the usus loquendi of the words (verb and noun) yield no such meaning but in every case signify deliberate acts of sin. WSD

{THE USUS LOQUENDI, is the usual mode of speaking. When applied to the Scriptures, it denotes the general scriptural use of words.}

to fall by the side of; met. to fall off or away from, make defection from, Heb_6:6. Mounce


impossible G102

In a neut. or pass. sense meaning impossible, not to be done (Mat_19:26; Mar_10:27; Luk_18:27; Heb_6:4, Heb_6:18; Heb_10:4; Heb_11:6). WSD

impotent, weak; impossible. Mounce


to renew G340

To renew. Occurs only in Heb_6:6, anakainízein eis metánoian (eis [G1619], unto; metánoian, the acc. of metánoia [G3341], repentance), meaning to have a new or qualitatively different kind of repentance which would see the person who had it through to the very end. WSD

to renovate, renew, Heb_6:6 Mounce


to repentance G3341

Repentance, change of mind from evil to good or from good to better (Mat_3:8, Mat_3:11; Mat_9:13 [TR]; Mar_2:17; Luk_3:8; Luk_5:32; Luk_15:7; Act_5:31; Act_20:21; Act_26:20; Rom_2:4; Heb_6:6; Heb_12:17; 2Pe_3:9) WSD

a change of mode of thought and feeling, repentance Mounce

@canadyjd it matters not whether you can find someone that believes it teaches you can lose salvation that also believes you can never get it back. It matters what the text shows us.

I have no problem reconciling eternal security with passages the show we can turn away from our faith. Since we can freely choose to trust in or reject God for our salvation that poses no problem for me.

 

[Ascetic X]

If salvation can be lost, how many sins does it take? One? 20? 100?

How long a time of sinning causes you to lose salvation? One day? One month? One year?

How bad do the sins have to be to make you lose your salvation? Murder? Adultery? Envy? Theft? Cannibalism?

How far into sin qualifies as having fallen away so much that repentance and restoration are impossible?

How do you know when your new birth has been aborted?

 

[Van]

The compelling evidence is that the soils # 2 & 3 were saved.

You have not given anything to counter what I have said except your opinion.

What do we see in Romans 4

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED G4100 GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What do we see in Luke 8:13 soil #2
Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe G4100 for a while,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, G4100 you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes G4100 in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

We are not told how long soil #2 believed but just it was only for a while. And soil #3 just did not mature.

No Van I am not claiming the human spirit put themselves in unity with Christ. What I am saying and what we see in scripture, above, is that when someone believes then God saves them.

Those that never believe or those that later turn away will be lost. God does not drag people into faith nor does He compel them to stay.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Pe 5:9 Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.

I know you think the bible teaches OSAS but I do not see that in scripture. But I do see that those saved have to guard their faith. We are to stand firm in our faith Van.

Gal_5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

1) There is absolutely no evidence Soils 2 ans 3 of Matthew 13 were saved.

2) You claim when a person professes belief, God "must" save them, thus automatic.

3) Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, Abraham was not credited as righteousness

4) Yes, Soil #2 did "believe" superficially, with no commitment. But God did NOT credit that "belief" as righteousness! Therefore Soil #2 was never saved.

5) Yes, once saved we are "compelled" to stay saved. We are "kept" as in a jail cell. Our credited faith is protected by the power of God and can never be "lost." 1 Peter 1:5

6) Yes, we are admonished to stand firm, rather than go with the flow. We are to strive to follow Christ on paths of righteousness, and NOT be sidetracked with bogus ministry, such as loss of salvation.

 

[Van]

"No Van I am not claiming the human spirit put themselves in unity with Christ. What I am saying and what we see in scripture, above, is that when someone believes then God saves them."

Here is biblical truth, when God alone credits a person's faith as righteousness, God alone transfers the person spiritually into Christ's spiritual body. Once "given to Christ" Christ has promised not to cast the person out. John 6:37.

So either we overpower the power of God keeping us in Christ, or once saved, we are always saved.

 

[atpollard]

[Yes I did but I did not see any verse list in your post. ]

The "verses" were provided in post #93 ... it was the reason that I made a post responding to your challenge to someone else ("You have not given anything to counter what I have said except your opinion.").

At the risk of pressing a parable too far, I think the SOILS are illustrative of reality. Many of the soils think they are "saved" and from the surface give the appearance of producing fruit for a while ... but ultimately, only one SOIL is GOOD SOIL that will "endure to the end" and not be burned as a worthless field. The church (earthly assembly) is a lot like that. Paul and John both confronted "SOILS" bearing BAD FRUIT in their letters. We are shocked when the NEWS talks about once prominent "Christians" that walk away, but is that not EXACTLY what one of the SOILS describes would happen?

So the question becomes "What makes a GOOD SOIL, good?"
IMHO ...
no soil I ever gardened ... ever broke up the hard ground to till itself (the gardener did that);
no soil I ever gardened ... ever spit its own rocks into a wall around the perimeter of the field (the gardener did that);
no soil I ever gardened ... ever weeded itself (the gardener did that);
no good soil ever started out as good soil (the gardener made the soil into a garden)

... so WHO IS THE GARDENER OF OUR SOIL?
Who breaks the hard ground, removes the stones and pulls the weeds so that the SEED can grow to produce a harvest?
US or GOD or BOTH?
[You will have to answer that question for your own heart, as I have answered it for mine.]

 

[Silverhair]

If salvation can be lost, how many sins does it take? One? 20? 100?

How long a time of sinning causes you to lose salvation? One day? One month? One year?

How bad do the sins have to be to make you lose your salvation? Murder? Adultery? Envy? Theft? Cannibalism?

How far into sin qualifies as having fallen away so much that repentance and restoration are impossible?

How do you know when your new birth has been aborted?

It is not a mater of how many sins it is a mater of lose of faith itself.

The person just gets to the point where they do not believe in God anymore.

Christians will sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

But we can be restored to fellowship
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Apostasy/falling away is a serious situation. This is when a person repudiates the faith they once held. Apostasy is a complete and final rejection of God.

 

[Silverhair]

"No Van I am not claiming the human spirit put themselves in unity with Christ. What I am saying and what we see in scripture, above, is that when someone believes then God saves them."

Here is biblical truth, when God alone credits a person's faith as righteousness, God alone transfers the person spiritually into Christ's spiritual body. Once "given to Christ" Christ has promised not to cast the person out. John 6:37.

So either we overpower the power of God keeping us in Christ, or once saved, we are always saved.

Van what it comes down to is do you believe what the text shows us or do you believe what want the text to say.

 

[Charlie24]

"No Van I am not claiming the human spirit put themselves in unity with Christ. What I am saying and what we see in scripture, above, is that when someone believes then God saves them."

Here is biblical truth, when God alone credits a person's faith as righteousness, God alone transfers the person spiritually into Christ's spiritual body. Once "given to Christ" Christ has promised not to cast the person out. John 6:37.

So either we overpower the power of God keeping us in Christ, or once saved, we are always saved.

Van, what do you make of what Christ said in Luke 8:13?

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

 

[Van]

Van what it comes down to is do you believe what the text shows us or do you believe what want the text to say.

When faced with the evidence of scripture, false teachers will always shift to "against the person" argumentation.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

 

[Van]

Van, what do you make of what Christ said in Luke 8:13?

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him.

To repeat, believing in Christ does NOT automatically save a person. See Matthew 7 and consider those that said "Lord, Lord."

The step in the salvation process presented in Romans Chapter 4, is that God either credits a person's faith or NOT. For example, if a person does not believe God raised Jesus from the dead, will God credit their faith? Automatic salvation, if you say the right words, with the right sincerity, you will be automatically saved, if false doctrine. If God does not credit your faith, you will die in your sins.

When you were taught the gospel, I expect they left that step out. No need to take my word for it, just study Romans Chapter 4 and ask yourself, would God save those whose faith He chose NOT to credit as righteousness?

 

[Charlie24]

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him.

To repeat, believing in Christ does NOT automatically save a person. See Matthew 7 and consider those that said "Lord, Lord."

The step in the salvation process presented in Romans Chapter 4, is that God either credits a person's faith or NOT. For example, if a person does not believe God raised Jesus from the dead, will God credit their faith? Automatic salvation, if you say the right words, with the right sincerity, you will be automatically saved, if false doctrine. If God does not credit your faith, you will die in your sins.

When you were taught the gospel, I expect they left that step out. No need to take my word for it, just study Romans Chapter 4 and ask yourself, would God save those whose faith He chose NOT to credit as righteousness?

It seems to me that I read they believed for a while and fell away.

Did I read that wrong?

 

[Silverhair]

The "verses" were provided in post #93 ... it was the reason that I made a post responding to your challenge to someone else ("You have not given anything to counter what I have said except your opinion.").

At the risk of pressing a parable too far, I think the SOILS are illustrative of reality. Many of the soils think they are "saved" and from the surface give the appearance of producing fruit for a while ... but ultimately, only one SOIL is GOOD SOIL that will "endure to the end" and not be burned as a worthless field. The church (earthly assembly) is a lot like that. Paul and John both confronted "SOILS" bearing BAD FRUIT in their letters. We are shocked when the NEWS talks about once prominent "Christians" that walk away, but is that not EXACTLY what one of the SOILS describes would happen?

So the question becomes "What makes a GOOD SOIL, good?"
IMHO ...
no soil I ever gardened ... ever broke up the hard ground to till itself (the gardener did that);
no soil I ever gardened ... ever spit its own rocks into a wall around the perimeter of the field (the gardener did that);
no soil I ever gardened ... ever weeded itself (the gardener did that);
no good soil ever started out as good soil (the gardener made the soil into a garden)

... so WHO IS THE GARDENER OF OUR SOIL?
Who breaks the hard ground, removes the stones and pulls the weeds so that the SEED can grow to produce a harvest?
US or GOD or BOTH?
[You will have to answer that question for your own heart, as I have answered it for mine.]

Yes I read your post #93 and dealt with it in post #94

What you have given is your opinion @atpollard.

You say that Luke 8:13-14 soils were not really saved and I say they were as that is what scripture shows us.

For you to deny their salvation is to give another meaning to the word believe.

In Theology the word implies, with this assent of the mind, a yielding of the will and affections, accompanied with a humble reliance on Christ for salvation. Joh_1:12, Joh_3:15 Webster

Soil #2 is clear that they believe for a while

Soil #3 is clear that their fruit does not mature

It is not a matter of what makes the soil good it is a matter of if the soil is good.

Rocky soils and soils where thorns grow can be just as good as a cleared field. It is how the seed can grow in those conditions that is being shown.

We are the soil in which God sows the seed. How we respond shows what kind of soil we are.

 

[Silverhair]

When faced with the evidence of scripture, false teachers will always shift to "against the person" argumentation.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

Van you have to get over this idea that everyone is against you or is attacking you. It really does get tiring.

Questioning your views is what a discussion board is all about.

The bible is clear that some that have trusted in Christ and been saved will apostatize/fall away.

You can either believe the bible or you can believe what you need to find to support your views.

 

[Silverhair]

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him.

Now that is just pure speculation on your part Van.

The text is clear in Luke 8:13 soil#2 believed. Do you have a different meaning for the word.

The same Greek word G4100 is used in
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—

Joh 3:15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

Joh 20:31 But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.