Do you read this verse the same way I do?

[Helen]

No, it is not out of context. Feel free to include it. Because we believe, God has given us the right to become his children, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

It was absolutely His decision what to do with those who believe in Him! And I am incredibly grateful for the love He has expressed in giving us a new life in Him.

But the point of that entire passage is that first, He was refused by the very people He came to -- His own -- which sort of refutes Calvinism's idea of irresistible grace. Second, anyone who believes is given the right to become a child of God. Third, the decision to make believers children of God is entirely God's. We could not have achieved that status ourselves, despite any belief we have in Him.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Helen:
No, it is not out of context. Feel free to include it. Because we believe, God has given us the right to become his children, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Pastor Larry, case in point of why I don't like the NIV. The DE translation allows too much freedom.

It was absolutely His decision what to do with those who believe in Him!

That is not what the text says. It says "who were born... not of the will of man but of God."

But the point of that entire passage is that first, He was refused by the very people He came to -- His own -- which sort of refutes Calvinism's idea of irresistible grace.

No. It refutes your mischaracterization of Calvinism's idea of irresistible grace which permeates every discussion you engage in on this topic.

Second, anyone who believes is given the right to become a child of God.

No conflict or disagreement here. And who will believe? Those who are born of the will of God.

Third, the decision to make believers children of God is entirely God's. We could not have achieved that status ourselves, despite any belief we have in Him.

I agree completely. But if you actually believe this what exactly is your argument with calvinism? The redeemed have the ability to believe for the same reason a baby bird has the belief that it can fly- it is a gift of God by our new spiritual nature.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Because it was already answered in the quote I gave from John 1:10-12 in my post on the first page. There was no reason to repeat it. The only think I can think of here, though, is that maybe you think becoming a child of God is not the same as the allegorical sheep of His pasture? If you think these are different, then we have a whole 'nother problem on our hands!

But you must reconcile these together. You want to assert the priority of John 1 without respect for how it fits in with John 10, John 6, and other passages. I do not so easily accept your reasoning. Jesus clearly says that lack of belief is a result of not being a sheep. That is explicit. And the explicit passages must be used to interpret the not so explicit ones. I am also unconvinced that John 1 supports you. John 1:13 supports us and leads us to the position that all of John 1 is against you since we are brought into his family by the will of God, not the will of man.

Please note what Jesus says in John 10:34-38, which is the conclusion of His discussion with these questioners.

[/qb] I don't disagree with his tellign them to believe. That is every man's responsibility. But why didn't they believe?? John 10:26 gives that answer and addresses the causal factor in it. I think that word "because" needs more attention than you ahve given it.

That is where you are playing with words. "Anytime their heart desires" -- it sounds so good, except in Calvinism the claim is made that their hearts CANNOT desire anything else! Therefore there is no choice for them. Someone can give me a choice of flapping my arms and flying or moving my legs and walking and tell me it is a real choice. After all, I have arms, don't I? But there is no real choice, despite the words, is there? I cannot fly by flapping my arms.

So you are admitting that your free will is affected by your nature?? So you admit you really don't have free will after all.

That is the sort of choice you are saying those not predestined to be saved have -- a 'choice' which is no choice at all, for Calvinists claim the choice is predetermined for them due to the condition of their hearts.

I think it is taught all through Scripture. It is a choice. They can do whatever they want. But SCripture teaches that we are by nature the children of wrath, walking according to our own desires. There you have the teaching of nature and desire clearly explained. The nature determines the desires and therefore the actions. These people do not want to be saved.

And that is why I spent the time in my first post pointing out that that interpretation of that verse, out of context, was badly mistaken unless so many other verses in John were wrong.

But our point is that your correlation is based on a faulty premise.

That is also why I brought up the idiocy of using "God is love" as an excuse for adultery, as one woman I know did. Calvinists are doing the exact same thing when they take John 10:26 apart from not only so much else in the book of John, but so much else in the entire Bible!

You know better than this Helen. Why do you stoop to this?? You know our reasoning is much more solid. Let's disagree on realities. John 10:26 as we understand seems to correspond perfectly with the book of John as a whole. In fact, I intend to preach a series very soon from teh book on John on evangelism. You should come hear how a calvinist preaches the gospel ...

 

[WonderingOne]

Ok guys, I have a question here that to some will probably seem ludicrous, but I would appreciate an answer. My question is simply this:

What is the spiritual importance of understanding this from one point of view over the other? Do we not all agree that the basis for our salvation is repentence and faith in Christ as our Redeemer? Whatever we may believe about how we came to this faith and repentence is a secondary issue at best, the important thing is that we have done so.

I understand the desire to delve more deeply into the Word, and to have a clearer understanding of what it teaches. But the fact remains that the gospel message itself is beautifully simplistic. Beyond that, most doctrines are only individual interpretations of scripture that have become widely accepted as truth. I am not in any way saying that there is no truth to be found in doctrine, I am only asking why some feel it is important to sway the opinion of others toward what they believe when it is not a necessary element of salvation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't know what others would say but I think the issue goes to the heart of the glory of God and his rights as God. I am not questioning the salvation of those who disagree with me, though I think there are some inconsistencies. I think it goes to how we view God and that is why I am firm in my position.

 

[Helen]

Wondering One, the reason I am willing to confront on this issue is that the end result of Calvinism is "too bad for most of the world, God didn't REALLY love you enough to send His son for you; it was only for us chosen who were predestined from before birth."

Calvinism presents hopelessness to the rest. They use the word 'choice,' but those others really have no choice because God did not select them from the beginning.

To me, this denies God's essential character of love and justice and mercy, altogether. Love means you care for someone's welfare more than your own. John 3:16 says God cared in this way enough to send His Son, and Revelation 13:8 says the sacrifice was a reality from the foundation of the world. John 3:16 says 'whoever' or 'whomsoever' (or whatever word your preferred translation uses -- they all indicate that 'whoever' is not a 'preselected few') believes will inherit eternal life.

It is absolutely essential that all men know that they are free to choose Christ, despite having a sin nature. His very mission is to rescue a man from himself, and give him a new nature.

It is not just, it is not merciful, and it most certainly is not love to condemn the vast majority of people created to hell by virtue of their sin natures and only select a few to be saved. This gives the appearance of randomness to us and denies everything He has created within us which declares the meanings of justice and mercy.

And so, because I feel the very character of God is at stake, I will confront Calvinism whenever possible. They claim that those who don't agree with them deny the sovereignty of God. Baloney. He is more sovereign than that doctrine will allow, for He is sovereign enough to give us the choice and still be in complete control. It's like a parent giving a choice to a small child -- the parent never loses control no matter which choice the child makes.

In God's case He has known the end from the beginning, so He does know what our choices will be, but that does not mean He has chosen for us. The command to "Choose this day whom you will serve" did not end with the Israelites entry into the Promised Land. It has rung down through the ages since Adam and Eve. And so even the writer to the Hebrews literally begs his readers, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion". And we see here also that it is not sin which condemned them, or us, but unbelief: "So we see that they were not able to enter because of their unbelief." (From Hebrews 3)

Chapter 4 begins with the following:

Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

That does not sound to me like only those God has already chosen will be allowed in. Does it sound like it to you?

And yet that is what the Calvinists here are saying -- that despite all the pleas and arguments presented throughout the entire Bible, only those pre-selected by God will ever be rescued anyway.

I cannot leave people here with that kind of fatalistic hopelessness.

And so I take the time to respond as often as I can.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I really wish Helen would confine her comments to what she believes rather than what she would like for us to believe. Once again, she has said somethings that simply aren't true. She has been corrected before but has continued anyway. ... What will it take??

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I don't know what others would say but I think the issue goes to the heart of the glory of God and his rights as God. I am not questioning the salvation of those who disagree with me, though I think there are some inconsistencies. I think it goes to how we view God and that is why I am firm in my position.

Larry I feel that Wondering one had a good thought and I regret that you so quickly shut their view down especially as I look at the fact that they are new to this board. I am also discouraged by your comment above that you claim not to question my salvation as a non calvinist but you see inconsistencies. I am not exactly sure what you mean by this and please don't bother explaining. I feel that the gloves have been taken off quite enough in this thread so far and I don't plan on any more personal issues being raised or debated. I want to encourage everybody that if we cannot cover any new ground with this thread that we should refrain from posting. Since Preach the word simply wanted to see if anyone agreed with his interpretation on the passage in question I feel he must surely be satisfied because 4 pages full of pro and con have been posted. What am I saying? that the uglyness must stop NOW!!!! and please don't anyone bother wasting bandwidth to reply that I am too sensitive and no uglyness exists here. The verse has been discussed, if you wish to add something please do so but let the constant rebuttle of the oppositions posts cease.

Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
]Larry I feel that Wondering one had a good thought and I regret that you so quickly shut their view down especially as I look at the fact that they are new to this board.

I thought she had a good question as well. That is why I answered it. I do believe there is something at stake here, namely the character and glory of God. So that is what I said.

Who shut "their view down" (whatever that means)? I certainly didn't. What good is a question if no one can answer it?

[qb I am also discouraged by your comment above that you claim not to question my salvation as a non calvinist but you see inconsistencies. I am not exactly sure what you mean by this and please don't bother explaining.

[/qb]Why does that discourage you? I think it is inconsistent to say that it is all of Christ, so long as I generate faith. I think it is inconsistent to argue that christ forgave all the sins of the world while people still go to hell. I think there are a number of inconsistencies that need to be dealt with. There was no attack intended in that and I am truly sorry that you took it that way.

I think the discussion here is helpful, particularly in rebuttals becuase it shows that both sides have answers for the other side. If no one answers my posts, people might think I am right (God forbid). If no one answers the posts of the other side, they might think they are right (God forbid). I think the discussion is well worth having becuase it demonstrates some points that people need to wrestle through.

 

[Daniel David]

Helen, along with Pastor Larry and others, I tire of being told what I believe. You do not accurately represent calvinism in your rebuttal of it. I hope this is accidently and done in ignorance and that none of it is purposeful.

You say that believing makes you a sheep. Christ said the opposite.

Here is what some people do and I think on this issue, you have also:

Take a few passages that seem to contradict. Take a passage here, a passage here, and a passage here. Mix them up in a bowl. Toss it up in the air and accept whatever falls down that you can grap. Now, I am not saying that you do this with every issue, just this one.

When interpretation is done correctly, each passage is examined at face value. All possible interpretations must be considered. Then, when you are satisfied that all possibilities have been uncovered, you move to the next one. After all passages have been examined and all possibilities considered, then and only then can you begin to weed out the false ideas.

Take John 3:16, we know that God loves the world. The text says it. In 1 John 2, it says that a friend of the world is at enmity with God. Now, if we examine all possibilities of these two passages, we will quickly understand that the "world" in John 3:16 is not the "world" in 1 John 2. The "world" in 1 John 2 refers to a governmental system that is controlled by Satan himself. It includes but is not limited to false gods, false ideas, sin, corruption, etc. God does not love that "world".

So, back to the passage. I asked about a specific verse. Once the different interpretations have been arrived at, we can move on and check them against other passages.

Jesus said that they did not believe because they were not sheep.

This passage can only have one interpretation. No other passage will contradict it. No other passage will need to be balanced against it. No, we set it aside and then move on. Once we consider the other passages, we can compare the various interpretations to this one.

This is not a general debate about calvinism. Please stick to the topic. Arguing about choice and free will and responsibility and other issues is not immediately relevant right now.

I sure hope all this makes sense to everyone. At least it makes sense to me.

 

[swaimj]

I want to go back to an early post and challenge an assumption. Preach the Word said:

John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

This is what Jesus said to the pharisees.

Jesus was not speaking to the Pharisees alone when he made this statement, he was speaking to the Jews. Check vss 24, and 31.

Then PTW goes on to say:

The people he spoke to were not sheep. Therefore, they COULD NOT believe.

I agree, they could not believe. Here is my question. Was Jesus saying that they could not believe in that particular circumstance or was he saying that they could not believe and would never be able to believe because they were not part of his elect? I believe that the first option is the biblical answer and here is why: After the cross, thousands of these Jews heard the gospel and came to salvation. Note Peter's sermon to the Jews in Acts 3 (which is delivered in Solomon's portico--the same location where Jesus told them they were not his sheep!). Note that Peter is speaking to the Jews in verse 12 when he addresses the "men of Israel". Peter recognizes God's soveriegnty in verse 13. He also places the blame for Jesus' death directly at the feet of the Jews in 13-15. Then in verse 17, Peter says "I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers". Then Peter merges God's soveriengty and man's responsibility into it's perfect blend in verse 18: "What God foretold by the mouth of the prophets that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled". Next, in verse 19, Peter invites the Jews to repentance. Finally, Peter reveals God's ultimate intention in verse 26: "God, having raised up his servant sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness".

Here is my view in summary. The Jews in John 10 were providentially and temporarily blinded by God who, in his sovereignty, used their blindness to bring about the way of salvation through the death of Jesus on the cross. After Jesus' resurrection, Peter preached the gospel to these Jews, stating God's intention that every one of them be saved.

Consequently, I think you are misinterpreting John 10 because you are taking it out of its proper place in the unfolding story of God's provision for salvation. Because you misinterpret it, you also misapply it and take it to mean that some people can be saved, but others can't. The truth is that God intended for every one of those Jews to be saved just as he intends for "all men to come to salvation" today. Preaching for all men to come to salvation is the message the apostles preached and I intend by God's grace to carry on that tradition.

 

[Helen]

Thank you swaimj, and God bless. In accord with Murphy's request, I am not going to keep bantering back and forth. Besides, everything have to say has been said. I do appreciate you adding this, however. I had not thought about it from that direction.

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Thanks swaimj for taking to the time to explain just how damaging their belief is. Satan is really doing a number on people nowadays and he always has. It is shame that people believe that there are only certain people that can be saved. That lie is for probably one of Satan’s biggest lies. Right behind evolution and Hell does not exist beliefs.


John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Looking at the just this verse you also have to remember that Jesus is God and can foretell the future.
He knew the people that he is addressing were not his sheep to begin with. Just like Jesus knew Judas would betray him, he knew the people did not believe and not one of his.
Everyone should know this, if you take just one verse and try to stand it alone like this you are just asking for trouble as you can see.
Looks like you are trying to find an excuse so you do not have to do God’s will and witness to the lost because you think “if their one of the elect, then they will be saved no matter what, there is no need to spread the Gospel.”

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
1)He is sovereign enough to give us the choice and still be in complete control.

2) I cannot leave people here with that kind of fatalistic hopelessness.

Since this thread was moved from the "Fundamental Baptist Forum" to here, let's have a go at it -

1) That is a contradictory sentence. If God was in complete control in the salvation by free will scheme, then if it is God's desire to save each person, then each person would be saved. But that is not what they mean. Therefore, they do not believe God is in complete control. Their scheme actually places man in complete control, they make man's will sovereign over God's will.

2) The doctrines of God's amazing grace are not fatalism. It is by God's grace and God's grace alone that anyone is saved. What is fatalistic and cruel is to tell someone that he can save himself by exercising free will when he doesn't have free will to start with. If man had to be saved by his free will, then no one would be saved. Period.

I thank God that salvation is 100% by His amazing grace.

 

[Frogman]

I believe this scripture says they did not believe because they were not his sheep.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
I believe this scripture says they did not believe because they were not his sheep.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

That's quite a stretch, there Bro. Dallas. Can you back that up with scripture?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by npetreley:
That's quite a stretch, there Bro. Dallas. Can you back that up with scripture?

Stretch? Not hardly. It is exactly what Christ says. Read John 10:26.

 

[Harald]

Humans, some of them, may say there is a "chance" for anyone "to be saved" who is not yet converted. Yet from God's standpoint there is no uncertainty or "chance". Certain ones, all of whom God knows in Himself, are already legally saved in and by Christ Jesus at Calvary. All these will be effectually called (regenerated) in due time by God on the footing of Christ's resurrection from among dead ones. God does not reason in Himself "O there is a chance Miss X will be saved next year, likewise there is a chance Mr. Z will be saved next week". But more likely He says "her will I quicken, and him will I sovereignly beget from above, according as I have sworn in myself, by my beloved Son who purchased life eternal for them by His obedience unto death".

The one who keeps on believing that subjective faith in Christ Jesus results in "getting born again" is evidently corrupted in the mind. Men of depraved minds think "the godliness" is a means of acquisition, or getting, or securing (spiritual and/or temporal blessings).

1Tim. 6:3 If anyone is teaching other doctrine, and is not drawing near to words being sound, even to those of our *Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine according to godliness,
6:4 He hath been besotted with pride, understanding nothing, but rather being sick about questionings and disputes over words, from which things is coming envying, strife, slanderings, malignant conjectures,
6:5 Vain disputings of men of whom the mind hath been thoroughly corrupted, and of ones having been deprived of the truth, of ones supposing the godliness to be a means of acquisition. Be thou withdrawing thyself from the ones who are such!

Notice Paul speaks of "the godliness", referring to faith in God and Christ, which includes godly obedience. Men of thoroughly corrupted minds believe this is a means of securing blessings from God the sovereign Lord. Some such go about teaching "a decision for Christ" results in regeneration or "born again" as they are so fond of calling it. Others more subtly teach subjective faith in Christ and His gospel results in justification before God (cp. Luther's solafidianism). Both groups of men evidence a corrupted mind. God via the Scripture commands me to keep on withdrawing from such. Genuine spiritual faith in Christ Jesus the Redeemer is not a means of getting or procuring or securing spiritual blessings or realities. It is rather an avenue of divine communication through which God the Holy Spirit communicates spiritual things to the spiritual man, utilizing the canonical Scriptures of truth. Subjective faith in God or Christ does not bestow spiritual reality where none such exists, but rather it is a reflection of the fact of spiritual realities God has made known to His sheep.

Harald

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken H:
[QB]

Originally posted by Helen:
[qb] 1)He is sovereign enough to give us the choice and still be in complete control.

1) That is a contradictory sentence. If God was in complete control in the salvation by free will scheme, then if it is God's desire to save each person, then each person would be saved.

Wrong. If God is in complete control of the method to which salvation is granted, then why could he not choose to grant man a free will to choose for him or against him? Your correlary fails miserably.

But that is not what they mean. Therefore, they do not believe God is in complete control. Their scheme actually places man in complete control, they make man's will sovereign over God's will.

Wrong again. Hey, Larry - will you yell at Ken H for misrepresenting the Arminian side? Isn't that fair and equitable?

Let me repeat for you. Clearly. So everyone can understand. Arminians believe that GOd is completely and utterly sovereign. God is powerful enough to give man a choice to choose Him or reject Him. God is powerful enough to send his Son to die for all humanity, not just a specific number of people. In fact, God is so sovereign that He sends His Spirit to draw all men.

So can it with the "I know what Arminians believe and they believe that God is an impotent being who can't do what he wants to do" crap. It's utter nonsense, and I really wish that the same standards that are applied to the Arminians who are accused of misrepresenting the Calvinist side would apply to the Calvinists who are committing the same gregorious error that Ken constantly makes. But, perhaps that is asking too much.

2) The doctrines of God's amazing grace are not fatalism. It is by God's grace and God's grace alone that anyone is saved.

Which is EXACTLY what Arminianism espouses. Read Arminius there, slick. You'll understand if you read. Guaranteed.

What is fatalistic and cruel is to tell someone that he can save himself by exercising free will when he doesn't have free will to start with.

A priori assumption. Invalid argument. And I think you know that.

If man had to be saved by his free will, then no one would be saved.

Which, ironically enough, is EXACTLY what ARminians say. Man is NOT saved by his free will. He is saved by the blood of the Lamb. Moderators? Larry? Anyone?

I thank God that salvation is 100% by His amazing grace.

And I am thankful that God rescued me from Calvinist thinking. I really am. Now, if only others could be saved in the same way. They would understand that God is not only omnipotent and completely sovereign in every single imaginable regard, but that He also loves each and every human being enough to sacrifice His Son for them. God is not only completely pure and completely holy, but He desires that all men come to a knowledge of Him - but because of His holiness and because of the rules that He alone made, only those who choose to follow Him can become a child of God.

I was rescued from Calvinism - I know truly understand sovereignty. For those who think, "How could he? He's an Arminian?", I answer, "Get off your high horse and do some reading of your own. Find out what Arminians actually believe. Then come back and we'll chat. But as it is, with Ken's blithering nonsense about what Arminians believe without a hint of a response from one of the same people who will at a drop of a dime shout "Foul" to Arminians who misquote or misspeake the Calvinists' system of theology, I suppose those of us who have been freed from "bondage" will have to suffer with it.

Okay. I'm done ranting.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Scott,

Instead of complaining to the moderators, why not do what everyone has failed to do up to this point: Answer the arguments convincingly. So far, no one has done that.

As to the moderating practices, I do not edit posts for content. I will remind someone that they are misrepresenting a particular position if I feel that they are, but I will not edit for that. I edit only for demeanor and being off topic.

The best thing you can do is convince us why this is not true. You have not done so yet though we welcome you too.