Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[Amy.G]

paco....
It was not a major part of the early church at all....only a few times were the apostles allowed to do signs

How do you know this? The bible only records a few signs, but that doesn't mean the apostles didn't do many, many more. I don't recall any scripture that says the apostles only did signs a "few" times.

 

[freeatlast]

How do you know this? The bible only records a few signs, but that doesn't mean the apostles didn't do many, many more. I don't recall any scripture that says the apostles only did signs a "few" times.

Amy I think that he is correct based on the past doings of the Lord. When you see miracles in the bible they are always rare and few in number with one exception, and that is what the Lord did and we know based on scripture (the book of John) that He did way more then is recorded.

All the rest of the people who were given the ability, based on scripture, there is no reason to be that there was a wholesale miracles or healings.

 

[Iconoclast]

How do you know this? The bible only records a few signs, but that doesn't mean the apostles didn't do many, many more. I don't recall any scripture that says the apostles only did signs a "few" times.

How do I know this???? I am "moving in the Spirit" right now Amy,and I have a word of knowledge for you....some call it scripture:laugh:

The miracles credentialed them as God's spokesman...gifts were not a sideshow which turned into a "major part" of what was done.
The signs of an apostle were just that ...so their word was received as it is The Word Of God. 12And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled

2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.

4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
14And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

16Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people;

14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

3Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

......................

 

[Paco]

The word trinity is not used in the Bible either. The term "sign gifts" were those specific spiritual gifts that were used as signs--
1. to authenticate the apostles and their message that they were from God.
2. to give to the Jews a sign of judgment and of revelation.
3. a sign of revelation from God, and not from another source.
4. a sign that the revelation of God was not yet complete.

When a bridge is out, a sign is put in place to give warning of impending danger to motorists and others. When the bridge is repaired the sign is no longer needed. It is taken away, removed.
As the NT was being written, and not yet complete, the sign gifts were in place. When the NT was completed at the end of the first century the signs were no longer needed and taken out of the way. They don't serve any purpose any longer. They have ceased.

BTW, to accuse cessationists of denying the power of God is a false allegation and against the BB rules.

I have no problem with the word “trinity.” The concept of the trinity is found all over the Bible. However, the term “sign gifts” is only used by those who argue against miracles, signs, and wonders for today.

In actual fact, God is a signs and wonders God. He has worked miracles to save, heal, and deliver His people throughout the whole of the Bible. God did not just start performing miracles when the apostles came on the scene.

Christ promised that miraculous signs would follow, not just the apostles, but “those who believe.”

Yes, God used signs and wonders to confirm His word through the apostles, but He also worked signs and wonders through the prayers and ministry of others also. Point is, signs and wonders are not and have never been limited only to apostles. In fact, there was an unnamed man who was working miracles in the gospels. He was not part of the band of disciples. The disciples wanted to stop him, but Jesus said “Forbid him not, for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me (Mark 9:39). Did he do miracles because he was an apostle???? No. He simply use the authority of the name of Jesus and cast out demons.

Then, there were seventy others who were commissioned by Christ to preach the gospel and heal the sick. They performed miracles, not by any inherent power of apostles, but by faith in the name of Jesus. Has the name of Jesus lost its power today? Peter said that the man healed in Acts 3 was healed by faith in the name of Jesus. Has faith passed away? No, of course not.

Nor were miracles, signs and wonders limited to ministry to the Jews. God worked many miracles through His servants among the Gentiles. Philip was not an apostle. He went to Samaria to preach Christ and there were many miracles, healings, and people were delivered from demons. What was the result? Here was great joy as people gave heed to him, received Christ, and were baptized. Paul, who was an apostle, but not part of the original group of apostles, on his missionary trips among Gentiles, had many miracles and healings.

The right kind of miracles are from God and point to Him. If there was ever a time when we needed miracles to point to revelation from God and to authenticate that the gospel is true, is today as we seek to win a unbelieving world to faith in Christ.

There is no statement in the Bible that miracles were a sign that the revelation of God was not yet complete. That is mere conjecture.

Miracles, signs and wonders are just as much needed today as they were needed in any other day. God still confirms His word with signs following (Mark 16:20).

Paco
That is a term coined by Cessastionists who deny God's power for healings and miracles today.

DKK
BTW, to accuse cessationists of denying the power of God is a false allegation and against the BB rules.

Excuse me?????

There is no “false allegation.” That is classic Cessationism. While there may be divergent views that differ slightly among some, just as some Calvinists vary slightly in some aspects of the TULIP, the majority of the Cessationists that I have conversed with, read the articles of in their books and web pages, and listened to in their radio broadcasts, … hold to that position, … that God does NOT use His power to work healings and miracles today.

John Piper is one exception to this. I have read several transcripts of sermons by him where he makes a case for signs, wonders, and miracles continuing today.

I have heard Reformed preachers say that God does not answer prayer today like some people imagine, He doesn’t change things, He helps, … He will help a doctor give you the right medicine or help you make the right decision. They will go so far as to say, “Don t pray for healing. Just ask God to help you learn what He is trying to teach you through this sickness.”

What did Paul say about those signs and wonders?
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
--Paul said that the signs and wonders that he did were the signs of an apostle, not meant for everyone. … Where did Paul ever say: "Do miracles as I do miracles." he never said any such thing. His emphasis was on service:

Paul said several times that he was an example for believers, to mark him and to follow him as he followed the Lord. Of course that meant in service, but it also meant in faith and in ministry too. It is very significant that he said he “fully preached the gospel of Christ” “through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God.” He set the example. All ministry should be done in the power of the Spirit.

The early church prayed “grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus” (Acts 4:29-30). We today need to pray like they prayed, preach like they preached, and believe like they believed.

 

[Paco]

That is fine but it is you keeps going back to the works of Jesus as justification to hold the gifts of the Spirit are for today. So my question is have you ever done any of the miracles that He did or healings He did?

Ahmmmm, ... I think I am going back to the epistles, the record of the church at its beginning, as well as to the words and works of Christ.

I give God praise and glory for doing some wonderful things in my life and ministry.

 

[Paco]

What works of Jesus have you done?
Did you fill out your profile correctly?
You sound more like a Charismatic than a Baptist.

Yes, I am Baptist. I am part of a traditional Baptist church.

By "traditional," ... I mean non-charismatic.

I do believe in "charisma," God's "grace gifts," but I am not part of any Charismatic group.

 

[DHK]

The word trinity is not used in the Bible either. The term "sign gifts" were those specific spiritual gifts that were used as signs--
1. to authenticate the apostles and their message that they were from God.
2. to give to the Jews a sign of judgment and of revelation.
3. a sign of revelation from God, and not from another source.
4. a sign that the revelation of God was not yet complete.

When a bridge is out, a sign is put in place to give warning of impending danger to motorists and others. When the bridge is repaired the sign is no longer needed. It is taken away, removed.
As the NT was being written, and not yet complete, the sign gifts were in place. When the NT was completed at the end of the first century the signs were no longer needed and taken out of the way. They don't serve any purpose any longer. They have ceased.

BTW, to accuse cessationists of denying the power of God is a false allegation and against the BB rules.

I have no problem with the word “trinity.” The concept of the trinity is found all over the Bible. However, the term “sign gifts” is only used by those who argue against miracles, signs, and wonders for today.

In actual fact, God is a signs and wonders God. He has worked miracles to save, heal, and deliver His people throughout the whole of the Bible. God did not just start performing miracles when the apostles came on the scene.

No one here has argued against that either. No one here has argued against the fact that God has done miracles and healings. However the gift of healing, and the gift of miracles have ceased. I wish that you could see the difference. Check Acts 5:16. These things don't happen anymore.

Christ promised that miraculous signs would follow, not just the apostles, but “those who believe.”

Quote the verse, word perfect. Check the context. You are lifting the verse out of context. You do this again and again.

Yes, God used signs and wonders to confirm His word through the apostles, but He also worked signs and wonders through the prayers and ministry of others also. Point is, signs and wonders are not and have never been limited only to apostles. In fact, there was an unnamed man who was working miracles in the gospels. He was not part of the band of disciples. The disciples wanted to stop him, but Jesus said “Forbid him not, for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me (Mark 9:39). Did he do miracles because he was an apostle???? No. He simply use the authority of the name of Jesus and cast out demons.

Your first line that I bolded is the most important. He used signs and wonders to confirm His Word. Now that His Word is complete there is no need for signs and wonders.
What did Jesus say?

"An evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign, but I say unto you that no sign shall be given unto them save for the sign of Jonas, for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
--The only sign guaranteed to this generation is the gospel. That is what Jesus said.
He also said that those who seek after signs belong to an evil and adulterous generation.

You also have your stories wrong and mixed up. There was a man wanting to do miracles in the name of Jesus. What happened to him?

Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. (Acts 19:13-16)
--They fled out of the house naked and wounded.
It wasn't a very good scene for them was it?

Then, there were seventy others who were commissioned by Christ to preach the gospel and heal the sick. They performed miracles, not by any inherent power of apostles, but by faith in the name of Jesus. Has the name of Jesus lost its power today? Peter said that the man healed in Acts 3 was healed by faith in the name of Jesus. Has faith passed away? No, of course not.

These were special times that Christ gave power to this group of 70 even before he died and rose again. It happened once in history and will never happen again (that is the commissioning of the 70).
The apostles had the gift of healing which we do not have today. Again, check Acts 5:16. Do you have that power?

Nor were miracles, signs and wonders limited to ministry to the Jews. God worked many miracles through His servants among the Gentiles. Philip was not an apostle. He went to Samaria to preach Christ and there were many miracles, healings, and people were delivered from demons. What was the result? Here was great joy as people gave heed to him, received Christ, and were baptized. Paul, who was an apostle, but not part of the original group of apostles, on his missionary trips among Gentiles, had many miracles and healings.

Philip was associated with the Apostles, chosen by the church in Acts chapter 6, along with the apostles to assist them. Look at what happened to Stephen in chapter 7. He was one of them. Philip also led the Ethiopian Eunuch to the Lord. How? By using the Book of Isaiah--the Scriptures. He preached unto him Jesus. Miracles do not save; Jesus does. Why are you hung up on miracles? They can't save anyone.

The right kind of miracles are from God and point to Him. If there was ever a time when we needed miracles to point to revelation from God and to authenticate that the gospel is true, is today as we seek to win a unbelieving world to faith in Christ.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation; the gospel points to Christ.
Satan works miracles too. Miracles do not and never have saved. That is why Jesus could not do any more miracles in Capernaum. They refused to believe him, even when he did miracles. The problem was unbelief. Miracles don't save. Only Christ can save.

There is no statement in the Bible that miracles were a sign that the revelation of God was not yet complete. That is mere conjecture.

Study the Bible. Every time there was a great flux of miracles, revelation was being given. Miracles accompany revelation from God. The canon is closed. There is no revelation being given.

Miracles, signs and wonders are just as much needed today as they were needed in any other day. God still confirms His word with signs following (Mark 16:20).

There is no need for them at all. They need the gospel. They need Christ. It is Christ that saves; not miracles. Don't take Scripture out of context, like Mark 16:20.

Excuse me?????

There is no “false allegation.” That is classic Cessationism. While there may be divergent views that differ slightly among some, just as some Calvinists vary slightly in some aspects of the TULIP, the majority of the Cessationists that I have conversed with, read the articles of in their books and web pages, and listened to in their radio broadcasts, … hold to that position, … that God does NOT use His power to work healings and miracles today.

There is a false allegation in a previous statement when you said that cessationists deny the power of God. That is a false statement, and not to be tolerated on this board. And your above statement that I have bolded is just as false. If you don't know what we believe don't post. It is better not to post at all then to post lies or positions that are misrepresented. If you want to be accurate in your statement here it is:

We hold that God does miracles; God heals; but the gift of miracles and the gift of healing have ceased. Is that clear now?

I have heard Reformed preachers say that God does not answer prayer today like some people imagine, He doesn’t change things, He helps, … He will help a doctor give you the right medicine or help you make the right decision. They will go so far as to say, “Don t pray for healing. Just ask God to help you learn what He is trying to teach you through this sickness.”

I am not Piper; I am not reformed; I am not Calvinist. I am in a discussion with you. Don't judge me by another man's beliefs.

Paul said several times that he was an example for believers, to mark him and to follow him as he followed the Lord. Of course that meant in service, but it also meant in faith and in ministry too. It is very significant that he said he “fully preached the gospel of Christ” “through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God.” He set the example. All ministry should be done in the power of the Spirit.

Paul said to be filled with the Spirit. But to claim that we can do the miracles that Christ did borders on blasphemy. Christ did those miracles to demonstrate his deity--that He is God. If you claim the same, you are claiming to be God. Is that your stand? If so, it is blasphemy.

The early church prayed “grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus” (Acts 4:29-30). We today need to pray like they prayed, preach like they preached, and believe like they believed.

So what did they pray: "that with all boldness they may preach thy word.. That ought to be our prayer. The gifts have ceased, but the power hasn't. Pray that God would fill you with His Spirit. And then notify me when you have the ability to walk on water, OK?

 

[Paco]

James wrote what is the pattern for today in our own local churches. We need to follow it.
Jesus had a different ministry. We are not Jesus. We cannot heal as Jesus healed. We need to stick to the instructions that James gave for the local church.

Also keep in mind these things:
1. Paul had an infirmity that he prayed for three times in 2Cor.12. Three times the Lord denied him, but said, "My grace is sufficient for you." God does not always give healing.

2. Timothy had stomach problems, and Paul could not heal him. "Take a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities."

3. Paul could not heal Trophimus. "Trophimus have I left sick at Miletus."

4. Paul could not heal Epraphraditus.
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. (Philippians 2:27)
Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me. (Philippians 2:30)
--It was not Paul; it was simply the Lord having mercy on him.

The Lord heals according to his will. Sometimes he heals and sometimes he doesn't. It is entirely up to his sovereign will. He doe not heal all the time, even when we follow the instructions given in James five.

#1 – You have not established that Paul was sick. The “thorn in the flesh” was a “personality” and not a “thing.” Paul said literally that it was the angel of Satan sent to buffet him. This passage does not say that God denied Paul healing.

#2 – We are not told that Paul “could not heal [Timothy]. That is assumption and not Biblical exegesis. Paul told Timothy to stop drinking polluted water. Even if he got healed and kept drinking polluted water the illness would return.

#3 - Paul never claimed to be the healer as far as I can tell. Do you know with certainty that Trophimus didn’t get better the next day? Some healings are gradual, some are instant.

#4 – Epraphraditus got well. God healed him. We are not given detailed information how he was healed or who prayed over him and ministered to him, but God had mercy on him and he recovered.

Why are you throwing all these common objections to healing up??? I thought you said you believed in healing in answer to prayer …. Perhaps you don’t believe in healing as much as you led me to believe …

James told us (the church) to pray one for another that we may be healed. That is a revelation of God's will to heal.. He would never tell you to pray for anything contrary to His will.

 

[JesusFan]

There is no need for them at all. They need the gospel. They need Christ. It is Christ that saves; not miracles. Don't take Scripture out of context, like Mark 16:20.

There is a false allegation in a previous statement when you said that cessationists deny the power of God. That is a false statement, and not to be tolerated on this board. And your above statement that I have bolded is just as false. If you don't know what we believe don't post. It is better not to post at all then to post lies or positions that are misrepresented. If you want to be accurate in your statement here it is:

Please make sure that you do apply same measure back to us holding that they have not fully ceased!

You seem to "lump" me in with all of those who hold to what we BOTH agree are heretical teachers like WoF/Prosperity, little gods etc!

Just remember that there ARE respected teachers/theologians who would hold they have NOT fully ceased after the Apostolic Age! They are found in BOTH baptist and Evangelical circles!

We hold that God does miracles; God heals; but the gift of miracles and the gift of healing have ceased. Is that clear now?

Even those of us saying for today would agree with you it NOT the person, but the Holy Spirit through that person doing the work!




I am not Piper; I am not reformed; I am not Calvinist. I am in a discussion with you. Don't judge me by another man's beliefs.

Paul said to be filled with the Spirit. But to claim that we can do the miracles that Christ did borders on blasphemy. Christ did those miracles to demonstrate his deity--that He is God. If you claim the same, you are claiming to be God. Is that your stand? If so, it is blasphemy

.


Again, would say that just as jesus had those done by the HS through Him, that would be same way IF were done today by God!

So what did they pray: "that with all boldness they may preach thy word.. That ought to be our prayer. The gifts have ceased, but the power hasn't. Pray that God would fill you with His Spirit. And then notify me when you have the ability to walk on water, OK?

So you would deny that the same Jesus and Hs would be able to do like things today IF God so chose to do it to bring glory to name Of Christ?

 

[Paco]

The sign gifts ended near the end of the first century. The Bible indicates this in 1Cor.13:8-13. History indicates this. And current events indicates this. We have this three-fold proof: The Bible, the past, the present.

My goodness! You make a statement of your belief like it is absolute fact, when it is of course nothing but your opinion. Where is the documentation? There is none. It is simply your belief. In your own mind you may justify believing this, but there is no proof at all.

#1 - The Bible does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. The passsage you reference is misinterpreted. It is a faulty hermeneutic to claim that this passage says that anything ended or ceased. That is simply not true. Can you not see that there is a difference between saying that something SHALL cease and saying that it HAS ceased or ended????? Then too, the context proves that the events described in verse 8 have not yet occurred because we still "know" in part and "prophecy" in part, .. i.e. we do not have total knowledge yet, ... we still see through a glass darkly, and one day we shall see the Lord face to face.

#2 - History does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. In fact, the writings of the early church fathers speak of miracles and healings ,deliverance from demons, in Jesus' name, ... Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Gregory, Anthony of Egypt, etc.

Why, . .. I was reading just yesterday of the "Prince of Preachers," Charles H. Spurgeon, and an incident when God used him in the spiritual gift known as "the word of knowledge" right in the middle of a sermon. One of the Wesley brothers(Charles -? ) penned the words to a hymn, "The Spirit and the Gifts are ours."

#3 - Current events do not say that spiritual gifts have ended. There have been more people operating in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, the last hundred years than ever before. Millions of people, all over the world have testified to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. There has been more attention to spiritual gifts in contemporary times than at any time in history.

I even heard a Southern Baptist pastor say on a television program a few weeks ago that there were more Baptists who speak in tongues than there were Assembly of God [members] who speak in tongues.

 

[Paco]

How are you personally accomplishing this?
What works of Jesus are you doing?
Do you have the same measure of the Spirit that Jesus had/has?

Oh, ... I am doing my part.

I do not think that anyone has the same measure of the Spirit that Jesus had. The verse said that He had the Spirit without measure.

Yet, Christ is the one who said that those who believe on Him would do the works (same works) that He did. We either believe it or we don't.

So, do you accept that statement as truth ... or do you deny that Jesus said it, ... or do you just reject His word as being irrelevant for today?

 

[JesusFan]

My goodness! You make a statement of your belief like it is absolute fact, when it is of course nothing but your opinion. Where is the documentation? There is none. It is simply your belief. In your own mind you may justify believing this, but there is no proof at all.

#1 - The Bible does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. The passsage you reference is misinterpreted. It is a faulty hermeneutic to claim that this passage says that anything ended or ceased. That is simply not true. Can you not see that there is a difference between saying that something SHALL cease and saying that it HAS ceased or ended????? Then too, the context proves that the events described in verse 8 have not yet occurred because we still "know" in part and "prophecy" in part, .. i.e. we do not have total knowledge yet, ... we still see through a glass darkly, and one day we shall see the Lord face to face.

#2 - History does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. In fact, the writings of the early church fathers speak of miracles and healings ,deliverance from demons, in Jesus' name, ... Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Gregory, Anthony of Egypt, etc.

Why, . .. I was reading just yesterday of the "Prince of Preachers," Charles H. Spurgeon, and an incident when God used him in the spiritual gift known as "the word of knowledge" right in the middle of a sermon. One of the Wesley brothers(Charles -? ) penned the words to a hymn, "The Spirit and the Gifts are ours."

#3 - Current events do not say that spiritual gifts have ended. There have been more people operating in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, the last hundred years than ever before. Millions of people, all over the world have testified to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. There has been more attention to spiritual gifts in contemporary times than at any time in history.

I even heard a Southern Baptist pastor say on a television program a few weeks ago that there were more Baptists who speak in tongues than there were Assembly of God [members] who speak in tongues.

"Dirty little secret" is that there are large numbers of those holding to both Spiritual Gifts ceaseing/operating within Baptist Circles/Churches!

 

[DHK]

#1 – You have not established that Paul was sick. The “thorn in the flesh” was a “personality” and not a “thing.” Paul said literally that it was the angel of Satan sent to buffet him. This passage does not say that God denied Paul healing.

You just do not want to believe what your Bible says do you? The thorn in the flesh has nothing to do with personality. Prove that it does. Why not read the Bible, study the Bible and accept it for what it says:

Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. (2 Corinthians 12:5)
--It is the word for weakness or sickness.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Corinthians 12:9)
--There is nothing said about personality here. It is a physical infirmity. Believe the Bible for what it says. Why would you disbelieve Paco??

Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10) WEB

The affliction that Paul had was probably an eye disease. He speaks of it in the Book of Galatians.
See with what large letters I write to you with my own hand. (Galatians 6:11)
--Normally Paul dictated his epistles to an amanuensis (like a secretary). But he says here that this one he wrote himself, telling them that he writes in very large letters. The reason that the letters are large is because he had poor eyesight--the thorn in the flesh that he had previously spoken of.

#2 – We are not told that Paul “could not heal [Timothy]. That is assumption and not Biblical exegesis. Paul told Timothy to stop drinking polluted water. Even if he got healed and kept drinking polluted water the illness would return.

More disbelief and denial. Look at the verse, exactly as it is written.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (1 Timothy 5:23)
and thy oft infirmities. Timothy got sick because of the water. That much is true. But he had other sicknesses as well. He was not healthy. Paul could not heal him. Why? It was not God's will. Like you said the illness would return. When God heals he heals completely not partially.

#3 - Paul never claimed to be the healer as far as I can tell. Do you know with certainty that Trophimus didn’t get better the next day? Some healings are gradual, some are instant.

Yes, he claimed to have the spiritual gifts of an apostle, and that included healing. But they were passing away. By the end of the first century they were gone. Notice they are not mentioned in other epistles. The two letters to the Corinthians were both written ca.55 A.D., very early on. Most of the other epistles of Paul were written in the mid-60's, ten years later. The gifts had already begun to wane.

#4 – Epraphraditus got well. God healed him. We are not given detailed information how he was healed or who prayed over him and ministered to him, but God had mercy on him and he recovered.

The account doesn't say that Paul healed him. Don't read into a passage that which isn't there.

Why are you throwing all these common objections to healing up??? I thought you said you believed in healing in answer to prayer …. Perhaps you don’t believe in healing as much as you led me to believe …

Because faith healers today say that they have the "gift of healing." If so they should be able to heal at will, any time, any one, and every one.
Again, check out Acts 5:16 where Peter healed ALL that came to him. There is not a person in this world that can do what Peter did. The gift has ceased.

James told us (the church) to pray one for another that we may be healed. That is a revelation of God's will to heal.. He would never tell you to pray for anything contrary to His will.

That is right. But he doesn't promise to heal everyone either. Does everyone that you pray for get healed?

 

[Paco]

[/COLOR]
You have presented no evidence at all. The gifts that you are speaking of have ceased. Where does it say that God put those gifts in the church for today. You have provided no evidence whatsoever. You need to provide Scripture that is not pulled out of a passage here and there with no context provided.

Paco
Excuse me, I thought you were familiar with the Bible and knew the passage I alluded to.

1 Cor 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God “set” these gifts and ministries in the church. This is something God did, not man. And no man has the authority to remove them or to say they are unimportant today.

You have done it again. You don't have any context for what you are saying. Let me give you an example. God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush. Has God changed his mind about speaking to people through burning bushes?? This the logic you use. You avoid context and pull Scripture from here and there, simply proof-texting to try and make it fit a man-made philosophy.

Paco
Hey! Who am I to say that God cannot do something that the Bible says He has done before. God can and will do whatever He wants to do when He wants to do it. Spiritual gifts do not operate at the whim of men. God is the one who moves in our lives and grants spiritual endowments for ministry and service.

“Man- made philosophy”??? Oh no! I am simply contending for the faith that was delivered to the saints. Religious tradition has changed it and taken miracles, healing power, miraculous answers to prayer, and spiritual gifts away, … or at least has made an attempt to do so.

I don't think you are Baptist. Are you?

Paco
Me Baptist??? Yes, I am Baptist, … Baptist born, Baptist bred, Baptist fed, and when I die I will be Baptist dead, or at least buried in a Baptist cemetery. I was Baptist before I was born, carried to church several times a week while still in the hanger. My Grandparents were Baptist on both sides. BUT, I am Holy Ghost Baptist. I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost and all of His gifts for today.

So, what does that have to do with our discussion? The Bible reads the same no matter what denomination any of us are a part of. No one is saved because they are Baptist. I know some Baptists who live reprobate lives. But I know many faithful Baptists who love Christ and are dedicated to Him and His will. God said He would pour out His Spirit upon “all flesh” … that means Baptists too!!!

What about you? At times I think you sound IFB. Are you a “fighting Fundy”??? What kind of missionary are you? Are you on the mission field now?

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)
--First, you misquoted the verse. That is deception.
Second, the verse is not talking about spiritual gifts at all.
Third, the context (Rom.9-11) is a discussion of the nation of Israel.
"God does not change his purposes or fail to keep his covenant. What he has promised concerning Israel will be fulfilled." (People's NT Commentary). The verse is speaking about the covenant promises of Israel.

Paco
WOW! You really like to throw out the prerogatives. Accusing me of deception???? Because I quote a Scripture? Is that allowed under the rules of the forum????

No. I didn’t misquote anything. I think I quoted it from two different translations. And yes, the verse does include spiritual gifts. Charisma means spiritual gifts. And the verse means what it says in any context. Rom 11:29 NAS for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Charisma - a (spiritual) endowment, miraculous faculty. It is the same word that is used in 1 Cor 12. Oh yes, … and we are commanded to “covet earnestly the best gifts [charisma].

"Those to whom he sends his call" were the nation of Israel. Read the context. It says nothing of the spiritual gifts or sign gifts listed in 1Cor.12:28.


Paco
Of course it does, as I just said, it is the same word for gifts, Charisma, that is used in verse 31. Remember? Context!!!!

Satan has gifts too. You don't pay attention to Scripture. You are being deceived by not studying the Word.

:laugh:
Paco
So, twice in this post you call me deceived .... I thought we were having an intelligent discussion regarding miracles, signs and wonders and spiritual gifts continuing or ceasing. Now I am just a simple-minded believer, a Christian who takes the Bible as real and true. Please don't use the perogatives with me. That is not necessary.

I think the subject under discussion is in regard to God’s grace gifts and miracles, signs and wonders. I am talking about what God has done and is doing in the earth today. There is all the difference in the world between Satan’s lying signs and wonders and God’s Charisma.

 

[DHK]

Oh, ... I am doing my part.

Good. Now list the works, the miracles of Jesus that you have done. This is what you are claiming. I want to know what works and/or miracles of Jesus you are presently doing. Don't be a hypocrite saying you can do one thing, but when the rubber meets the road you can't provide the evidence.

I do not think that anyone has the same measure of the Spirit that Jesus had. The verse said that He had the Spirit without measure.

Then why claim that you did.

Yet, Christ is the one who said that those who believe on Him would do the works (same works) that He did. We either believe it or we don't.

Works don't mean miracles. You only assume that.

So, do you accept that statement as truth ... or do you deny that Jesus said it, ... or do you just reject His word as being irrelevant for today?

I accept the statement as truth. I don't willy-nilly interpret it to mean something that it was never meant to be. Why interpret the Scripture in the light of your own per-conceived ideas, instead of what it actually teaches?

 

[DHK]

:laugh:
Paco
So, twice in this post you call me deceived .... I thought we were having an intelligent discussion regarding miracles, signs and wonders and spiritual gifts continuing or ceasing. Now I am just a simple-minded believer, a Christian who takes the Bible as real and true. Please don't use the perogatives with me. That is not necessary.

I think the subject under discussion is in regard to God’s grace gifts and miracles, signs and wonders. I am talking about what God has done and is doing in the earth today. There is all the difference in the world between Satan’s lying signs and wonders and God’s Charisma.

But you can't provide the evidence that any of the gifts of the Spirit are operational today as they were in the Bible.
You haven't done that.
If you believe they are then you are deceived. Who is deceiving you to believe such things when we can't see any evidence of any of these things going on anywhere in the world today?

 

[freeatlast]

My goodness! You make a statement of your belief like it is absolute fact, when it is of course nothing but your opinion. Where is the documentation? There is none. It is simply your belief. In your own mind you may justify believing this, but there is no proof at all.

#1 - The Bible does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. The passsage you reference is misinterpreted. It is a faulty hermeneutic to claim that this passage says that anything ended or ceased. That is simply not true. Can you not see that there is a difference between saying that something SHALL cease and saying that it HAS ceased or ended????? Then too, the context proves that the events described in verse 8 have not yet occurred because we still "know" in part and "prophecy" in part, .. i.e. we do not have total knowledge yet, ... we still see through a glass darkly, and one day we shall see the Lord face to face.

#2 - History does not say that spiritual gifts have ended. In fact, the writings of the early church fathers speak of miracles and healings ,deliverance from demons, in Jesus' name, ... Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Gregory, Anthony of Egypt, etc.

Why, . .. I was reading just yesterday of the "Prince of Preachers," Charles H. Spurgeon, and an incident when God used him in the spiritual gift known as "the word of knowledge" right in the middle of a sermon. One of the Wesley brothers(Charles -? ) penned the words to a hymn, "The Spirit and the Gifts are ours."

#3 - Current events do not say that spiritual gifts have ended. There have been more people operating in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, the last hundred years than ever before. Millions of people, all over the world have testified to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. There has been more attention to spiritual gifts in contemporary times than at any time in history.

I even heard a Southern Baptist pastor say on a television program a few weeks ago that there were more Baptists who speak in tongues than there were Assembly of God [members] who speak in tongues.

I found this last statement about tongues in the Southern Baptists interesting. However I can assure you that the man is wrong. Saying what he says does not make it true and as one who has mostly been in a Southern Baptist church I can say with a certain amount of assurance that while there are those in just about every Baptist church that say they speak in tongues it is very few in the Southern Baptists. The problem there is that the modern day "tongues" (gibberish) are not the tongues of the scripture which God gave to the church. The tongues of the bible are clearly spoken of as to what the purpose was for them and those who claim to have them today never use them for that purpose. These of today are that which is false.

As to the ending of the gifts and scripture not saying they ended, to be honest there is room for that belief in regards to scripture as the passage in Corinthians can be seen in other lights. However the very fact that certain of the gifts are no longer seen in action certainly must hold some weight in the matter. I have said it before and I will again. I have on more then one occasion sought the gift of healing or someone who had it, but there just no one today with it. I am always open to be shown wrong as I do not want a single thing I hold as truth to be in error and I would greatly appreciate any evidence of anyone with the New Testament gift of healing or miracles. They just do not exist as far as I can see. I welcome any positive evidence to the contrary as I have a friend that needs their service.

 

[Iconoclast]

#3 - Current events do not say that spiritual gifts have ended. There have been more people operating in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, the last hundred years than ever before. Millions of people, all over the world have testified to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. There has been more attention to spiritual gifts in contemporary times than at any time in history.

Not really. Actually no one is...which of these do you like???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Y9NBFG8ZQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO6R1zVCw1M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ck5vTmdNQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAWF_wzbWf4&feature=related

 

[Paco]

You just do not want to believe what your Bible says do you?

Paco
Want to believe the Bible???? Oh my, ... don't I wish everybody loved the truth of God and were willing to study to show themselves approved of God. Sadly, many, even many Baptists, just swallow hook, line, and sinker what anyone tells them about the Bible without checking it out. That is why the Bible says to be careful about what you hear. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, ..... and doubt and unbelief comes by hearing the traditions of men.


The thorn in the flesh has nothing to do with personality. Prove that it does. Why not read the Bible, study the Bible and accept it for what it says:

Paco
My goodness, ... would the pot call the kettle black???? I just posted what the Bible states about the thorn in the flesh. Paul stated exactly what it was, "the messenger [angelos] of Satan" ... that is not a thing but a personality. Religious tradition makes an attempt to say it is some loathsome eye disease and that God refused to heal him, but that is not supported at all by the text. There is no mention of sickness at all in the passage about the thorn in the flesh. The word weakness (infirmity) is used in connection with the persecutions he endured.

The expression "thorn in the flesh," or very similar wording, is a metaphor that is used several places in the Bible. It is like saying that someone is a "pain in the neck."

Whenever the expression is used, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is specifically stated exactly what the thorn is. In every usage of this or similar terms, itis NEVER USED TO INDICATE SICKNESS. In Nu 33:55, the expression "thorns in your sides" illustrated the inhabitants of Canaan. In Jos 23:13, the expression "scourges in your sides and thorns in your eyes" referred to the heathen nations of Canaan. The Bible clearly states what these thorns were. They were personalities.

In 2 Cor 12, Paul states that the "thorn in the flesh: was the "messenger of Satan. The word translated "messenger" is "angelos," which appears 188 times in the Bible. 181 times it is translated "angel," and 7 times it is translated as "messenger." In all 188 times, it is referring to a person and not a thing. It is unreasonable to speculate about what the thorn was when Paul said it was the angel or messenger of Satan.

So yes, let's do please read the Bible and believe what it says and not get sidetracked by the traditions of men.




Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. (2 Corinthians 12:5)
--It is the word for weakness or sickness.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Corinthians 12:9)
--There is nothing said about personality here. It is a physical infirmity. Believe the Bible for what it says. Why would you disbelieve Paco??

Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10) WEB

The affliction that Paul had was probably an eye disease. He speaks of it in the Book of Galatians.
See with what large letters I write to you with my own hand. (Galatians 6:11)
--Normally Paul dictated his epistles to an amanuensis (like a secretary). But he says here that this one he wrote himself, telling them that he writes in very large letters. The reason that the letters are large is because he had poor eyesight--the thorn in the flesh that he had previously spoken of.

More disbelief and denial. Look at the verse, exactly as it is written.

Paco
Re: Gal 6:11 ... The KJV reads, Gal 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

The word "letter" is translated from the same Greek word he used when he said, "the letter kills but the spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6). Surely he was not referring to a letter of the alphabet!

The word "large," is translated from a Greek word meaning a quantitative form, as how much, not how big. Paul's letter was quantitatively large. A letter of the alphabet can be large in size but not large in quantity.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (1 Timothy 5:23)
and thy oft infirmities. Timothy got sick because of the water. That much is true. But he had other sicknesses as well. He was not healthy. Paul could not heal him. Why? It was not God's will. Like you said the illness would return. When God heals he heals completely not partially.

Yes, he claimed to have the spiritual gifts of an apostle, and that included healing. But they were passing away. By the end of the first century they were gone. Notice they are not mentioned in other epistles. The two letters to the Corinthians were both written ca.55 A.D., very early on. Most of the other epistles of Paul were written in the mid-60's, ten years later. The gifts had already begun to wane.

Paco
Speculation, conjecture, and supposition, .... no facts. Were you there to note passing of the last spiritual gift? No, I didn't think so. There are no eyewitnesses to testify as to which was the last one to work a miracle.


The account doesn't say that Paul healed him. Don't read into a passage that which isn't there.


Paco
Nor did I say that Paul healed him. Sometimes I wonder if your really read my posts or if you just skim them and assume that I say things that I don't really say.

Actually, no man heals anyone, whether Peter, Paul, or you or me. Jesus is the Healer, not any man who prays for the sick.



Because faith healers today say that they have the "gift of healing." If so they should be able to heal at will, any time, any one, and every one.
Again, check out Acts 5:16 where Peter healed ALL that came to him. There is not a person in this world that can do what Peter did. The gift has ceased.


Paco
Here you state your misconceptions again. You have never presented any proof that any gift has ceased. You just state your opinion over and over.

Your idea of how the "gift of healing" functions is incorrect. No man can operate any spiritual gift at his will. They only function as the Spirit of God wills. Spiritual gifts do not belong to any man for him to turn on or off at his whim and fancy.

Also, I showed you with chapter and verse how Christ did not always heal everybody. There were at times many sick people in His presence that did not get healed. Christ certainly had every spiritual gift. He had the Spirit without measure. Yet, even Christ did not indescriminately heal each and every person no matter if they wanted healing or not, or no matter if they refused to believe in Him. Sometimes He asked the sick, "Do you want to be healed?" Sometimes He said, "According to your faith be it unto you!" And sometimes the healings of Christ were gradual, ie they were not instant healings. No one is above the Master. We are not going to do more than Him, no matter what spiritual gift we may function in.

You said you were a missionary, .... I suppose that means you are or were a preacher. Did you always get everyone who heard you preach saved? Have you ever preached in a prison? Tell me now, did you get everyone in the prison saved and baptized???? Your statement about someone who had the "gift of healing" getting everyone healed without fail is equal to someone saying that if your were a real preacher you would get everyone in the prison saved.

Tell me, can you get someone saved against their will??? Can you get someone saved who does not believe the Bible? Can you get someone saved who is convinced that they have committed the unpardonable sin and they are destined for hell? Can you get someone saved who refuses to have faith in God? No, you are not going to get them saved unless you get them to believe the word of God and trust in Christ.

Well listen very carefully, ... you won't get those kind of people healed either, no matter how much faith you have, ... and no matter what gifts you have operating in your life, ... unless you get them to believe the word of God and trust in Christ.

Actually, there is no such thing in the Bible as "the gift of healing." If you check, you will discover that God "set" in the church "gifts of healings." Both the word "gifts" and the word "healings" are in the plural. Point: No man has all the gifts of healings.


That is right. But he doesn't promise to heal everyone either. Does everyone that you pray for get healed?

Well dear brother, what is it that determines the will of God, the word or experience????

When God says "pray one for another that you may be healed" ... He revealed what His will regarding healing is. The God of truth will NEVER tell you to pray for something that is not His will.

Now, I love talking about God's healing power. The Lord Jesus was anointed by the Spirit to heal the sick, and the sick He healed were "oppressed by the Devil." This is my favorite Scripture regarding healing.

Tell me, what is your favorite Scripture or Bible promise for healing????

BTW, did you ever respond to my question about whether you preached and practiced James 5:14-16 in your church??? I do not remember reading your answer ...

Well, it is late and I have to rise early in the am .... There is more I would like to respond to, ... and I would like to look over some of the other threads, ... but alas, it is time to retire for the evening.

 

[DHK]

Paco
Want to believe the Bible???? Oh my, ... don't I wish everybody loved the truth of God and were willing to study to show themselves approved of God. Sadly, many, even many Baptists, just swallow hook, line, and sinker what anyone tells them about the Bible without checking it out. That is why the Bible says to be careful about what you hear. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, ..... and doubt and unbelief comes by hearing the traditions of men.

1. We all need to be students of God’s Word: comparing Scripture with Scripture.
2. Sadly some rely on experience rather on the sound teaching of the Word of God.

Paco
My goodness, ... would the pot call the kettle black???? I just posted what the Bible states about the thorn in the flesh. Paul stated exactly what it was, "the messenger [angelos] of Satan" ... that is not a thing but a personality.

That simply means that God allowed it to come from Satan in the same way that God allowed affliction to Job from Satan. In Job chapter one, Satan was a messenger also.

Religious tradition makes an attempt to say it is some loathsome eye disease and that God refused to heal him, but that is not supported at all by the text. There is no mention of sickness at all in the passage about the thorn in the flesh. The word weakness (infirmity) is used in connection with the persecutions he endured.

Your refusal to compare Scripture with Scripture shows your lack of Bible study. His epistle to the Galatians is evidence of his poor eyesight. No doubt he may have lost some of his sight when he was stoned.

The expression "thorn in the flesh," or very similar wording, is a metaphor that is used several places in the Bible. It is like saying that someone is a "pain in the neck."

Perhaps, but Paul defines for us what it most likely is.

Whenever the expression is used, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is specifically stated exactly what the thorn is. In every usage of this or similar terms, itis NEVER USED TO INDICATE SICKNESS. In Nu 33:55, the expression "thorns in your sides" illustrated the inhabitants of Canaan. In Jos 23:13, the expression "scourges in your sides and thorns in your eyes" referred to the heathen nations of Canaan. The Bible clearly states what these thorns were. They were personalities.

First you just said it is like a metaphor.
Then you went straight to the OT to define a NT word. That is not how we study the words of the Bible. The OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. They are different words. Only the context can define the phrase here, and Paul tells us what that context is:;

For this thing (thorn in the flesh) I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)
--“My infirmities,” he says. He defines “thorn in the flesh” as his infirmities which means weaknesses or sicknesses. It has nothing to do with personality.

In 2 Cor 12, Paul states that the "thorn in the flesh: was the "messenger of Satan. The word translated "messenger" is "angelos," which appears 188 times in the Bible. 181 times it is translated "angel," and 7 times it is translated as "messenger." In all 188 times, it is referring to a person and not a thing. It is unreasonable to speculate about what the thorn was when Paul said it was the angel or messenger of Satan.

That is all irrelevant when Paul himself tells us what the “thorn in the flesh” means.

So yes, let's do please read the Bible and believe what it says and not get sidetracked by the traditions of men.

I have been studying and teaching the Bible for over 30 years. The last thing I do is trust tradition. The Bible is my only authority.

Paco
Re: Gal 6:11 ... The KJV reads, Gal 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

The word "letter" is translated from the same Greek word he used when he said, "the letter kills but the spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6). Surely he was not referring to a letter of the alphabet!

Yes, he was referring to the letters of the alphabet, the very words that he was writing. It was not the length of the epistle; it was the largeness of the alphabet, the letters of the Greek words that he was referring to. Consult some commentaries to help you study.

The word "large," is translated from a Greek word meaning a quantitative form, as how much, not how big. Paul's letter was quantitatively large. A letter of the alphabet can be large in size but not large in quantity.

Romans was comparatively large; Galatians was comparatively short. Your point is wrong.
This was not a long letter. The letters in the epistle were large for they “were written with his own hand,” and not by the hand of another, as he explains.

quote]Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (1 Timothy 5:23)
and thy oft infirmities. Timothy got sick because of the water. That much is true. But he had other sicknesses as well. He was not healthy. Paul could not heal him. Why? It was not God's will. Like you said the illness would return. When God heals he heals completely not partially.

Yes, he claimed to have the spiritual gifts of an apostle, and that included healing. But they were passing away. By the end of the first century they were gone. Notice they are not mentioned in other epistles. The two letters to the Corinthians were both written ca.55 A.D., very early on. Most of the other epistles of Paul were written in the mid-60's, ten years later. The gifts had already begun to wane.

Paco
Speculation, conjecture, and supposition, .... no facts. Were you there to note passing of the last spiritual gift? No, I didn't think so. There are no eyewitnesses to testify as to which was the last one to work a miracle.

[/quote]
It is not speculation that Timothy was “often sick.” Or, had “of infirmities.”
This is not conjecture that Paul gave him advice to drink “wine” because of these stomach ailments and other infirmities.
This is not supposition at all. This is what the Word of God states, and you seem to want to deny it. Why is that? Is it because you don’t want to believe the things and traditions you have come to learn. Are you sure you are a Baptist? What Baptist church teaches what you believe? Can you show me a statement of faith of any Baptist Church that believes in these things?