Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[DHK]

Because faith healers today say that they have the "gift of healing." If so they should be able to heal at will, any time, any one, and every one.
Again, check out Acts 5:16 where Peter healed ALL that came to him. There is not a person in this world that can do what Peter did. The gift has ceased.

Paco
Here you state your misconceptions again. You have never presented any proof that any gift has ceased. You just state your opinion over and over.

Scripture: 1Cor.13:8-13 indicates that the gifts have ceased.
History indicates that the gifts have ceased.
Lack of current evidence indicates that the gifts have ceased.
Your own credibility is at stake since you cannot provide a shred of evidence that the gifts are operational today. You cannot assert a so-called fact that is not in evidence.

Your idea of how the "gift of healing" functions is incorrect. No man can operate any spiritual gift at his will. They only function as the Spirit of God wills. Spiritual gifts do not belong to any man for him to turn on or off at his whim and fancy.

Can they heal or not?
Is the gift operational or not? Don’t sit on the fence! If it was operational a person would be able to heal all who came to them just like Peter did in Acts 5:16, and that does not happen.

Also, I showed you with chapter and verse how Christ did not always heal everybody.

That is evidence that the gift of healing is not operational today. if the GIFT was operational today the person would be able to heal ALL that came to him, but that doesn’t happen.

There were at times many sick people in His presence that did not get healed. Christ certainly had every spiritual gift. He had the Spirit without measure. Yet, even Christ did not indescriminately heal each and every person no matter if they wanted healing or not, or no matter if they refused to believe in Him. Sometimes He asked the sick, "Do you want to be healed?" Sometimes He said, "According to your faith be it unto you!" And sometimes the healings of Christ were gradual, ie they were not instant healings. No one is above the Master. We are not going to do more than Him, no matter what spiritual gift we may function in.

Where in the Bible did Christ ever refuse anyone who wanted to be healed? You are wrong!! Christ always healed ALL who came to him—always!

And all the city was gathered together at the door. And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. (Mark 1:33-34)

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: (Matthew 8:16)

Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. (Luke 4:40)
--Jesus always healed those who came to him; he never turned anyone away.

You said you were a missionary, .... I suppose that means you are or were a preacher. Did you always get everyone who heard you preach saved? Have you ever preached in a prison? Tell me now, did you get everyone in the prison saved and baptized???? Your statement about someone who had the "gift of healing" getting everyone healed without fail is equal to someone saying that if your were a real preacher you would get everyone in the prison saved.

Not everyone will believe. Even Jesus said that, and you know that. Your comparison is ludicrous. Jesus healed even the unbelievers. He healed all, whether they were saved or not. Healing is not dependent on the sick person’s faith.

Tell me, can you get someone saved against their will??? Can you get someone saved who does not believe the Bible? Can you get someone saved who is convinced that they have committed the unpardonable sin and they are destined for hell? Can you get someone saved who refuses to have faith in God? No, you are not going to get them saved unless you get them to believe the word of God and trust in Christ.

All of this is irrelevant.

Well listen very carefully, ... you won't get those kind of people healed either, no matter how much faith you have, ... and no matter what gifts you have operating in your life, ... unless you get them to believe the word of God and trust in Christ.

That is not true. I prayed for a Muslim to be healed one time, and God healed him. It is God that shows mercy, and that mercy is not dependent upon a sick man’s faith. God has not limited himself to those of the Christian faith. He can heal whomever he chooses—whether they have faith or not. You are very confused.

That is right. But he doesn't promise to heal everyone either. Does everyone that you pray for get healed?

Well dear brother, what is it that determines the will of God, the word or experience????

Prayer, plus the Word of God.
“The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

When God says "pray one for another that you may be healed" ... He revealed what His will regarding healing is. The God of truth will NEVER tell you to pray for something that is not His will.

God never promised that all will be healed. I have given you several examples, even Paul himself, of those in the NT that were not healed.

 

[mandym]

Well dear brother, what is it that determines the will of God, the word or experience????

When God says "pray one for another that you may be healed" ... He revealed what His will regarding healing is. The God of truth will NEVER tell you to pray for something that is not His will.

Now, I love talking about God's healing power. The Lord Jesus was anointed by the Spirit to heal the sick, and the sick He healed were "oppressed by the Devil." This is my favorite Scripture regarding healing.

Tell me, what is your favorite Scripture or Bible promise for healing????

BTW, did you ever respond to my question about whether you preached and practiced James 5:14-16 in your church??? I do not remember reading your answer ...

Well, it is late and I have to rise early in the am .... There is more I would like to respond to, ... and I would like to look over some of the other threads, ... but alas, it is time to retire for the evening.

I think it is easy to place the word Baptist in one's profile but the proof is always in the pudding.

 

[JesusFan]

I think it is easy to place the word Baptist in one's profile but the proof is always in the pudding.

Well, to be fair here to him!

Not sure IF he attends a baptist church open to this, or if they are "officiall" a Charasmatic baptist church, or one who view this as being a "disputable" doctrine as my baptist Church does!

Would say based upon his replys on this topic that he fits under "classical" pentacostal...

Second act of grace, tongues required to show that etc

 

[Paco]

:laugh:
Paco
So, twice in this post you call me deceived .... I thought we were having an intelligent discussion regarding miracles, signs and wonders and spiritual gifts continuing or ceasing. Now I am just a simple-minded believer, a Christian who takes the Bible as real and true. Please don't use the perogatives with me. That is not necessary.

Oh my, ... while thinking about the fact that you have now called me "deceived" repeatedly in this thread, it came to me that I had used the wrong word in bringing this to your attention.

The correct word is "pejoratives," and not "perogatives." So, please excuse my use of the incorrect term.

A "pejorative" is a term of abuse, an insult.

So, let me say it again since you never answered me, ... Is it allowed under the rules of this forum to call people names, to insult them?

There is no doubt that we have a different perspective on the topic of Cessationism and Continualism in regard to miracles, signs and wonders.

I say that what the Bible states about miracles, spiritual gifts, and the power of the Holy Spirit is the same today as it was in the days of the early church and you say that spiritual gifts have ceased.

It may surprise you, .... but I am certainly not alone in this view about spiritual gifts continuing, though it seems that I am in the minority on this forum.

Regardless of one's view of these issues, the use of perjoratives against a brother with whom you disagree is offensive and unnecessary.

 

[Paco]

This is not supposition at all. This is what the Word of God states, and you seem to want to deny it. Why is that? Is it because you don’t want to believe the things and traditions you have come to learn. Are you sure you are a Baptist? What Baptist church teaches what you believe? Can you show me a statement of faith of any Baptist Church that believes in these things?

Brother,there is no disagreement with the Bible, the problem is that you imagine your erroneous assumptions and faulty interpretations to "what the word of God states," and it simply is not the same thing. You read your ideas into the verses you reference instead of drawing your conclusions from the verses.

The term for this is Eisegesis ...

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They start off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

For example, you have several times made the statement that the Bible says that spiritual gifts have ceased, and gave the reference 1 Cor 13:8 in suport of this. Upon examination, one reads in 1 Cor 13:8 that "tongues shall cease." The text DOES NOT SAY that tongues "HAVE" ceased. Nor does it say that any "spiritual gifts have ceased."

No, you are adding something to the text with your faulty interpretation that is NOT THERE AT ALL.

Then, you express doubt that I am what I say I am because in your view what I say about spiritual gifts is not Baptist.

My, my, ...

Well, I am certainly not your kind of Baptist ... I will grant you that.

Surely you are not so naive as to think Baptists do not believe in spiritual gifts and miraculous answers to prayer today ....

I personally know many Baptist who operate and function in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues and prophecy. It is nothing new, ... just more and more as time progresses. God is pouring out His Spirit upon Baptists all across the country, oh, .. and in other countries too....

Oh, ... and I think I mentioned in a post how I was reading just two or three days ago about the great BAPTIST preacher Charles H Spurgeon giving a "word of knowledge" in the middle of a sermon. If you carefully read after Mr Spurgeon you will find several incidents of spiritual gifts functioning.

 

[Paco]

Where in the Bible did Christ ever refuse anyone who wanted to be healed? You are wrong!!

STRAWMAN.

That is NOT what was said. You misrepresent my view and then argue against what I did not say.

 

[DHK]

Oh my, ... while thinking about the fact that you have now called me "deceived" repeatedly in this thread, it came to me that I had used the wrong word in bringing this to your attention.

The correct word is "pejoratives," and not "perogatives." So, please excuse my use of the incorrect term.

A "pejorative" is a term of abuse, an insult.

I did not use a pejorative or an insult. It wasn't an insulting word for I used it quite sincerely, not in sarcasm.
I sincerely said to you that you are deceived, and then asked you who it was that deceived you? Who are the ones that have been leading you astray to believe such things? That is a sincere question. To say that you are deceived is a truth, not an insult.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (Galatians 3:1)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)
--Did Paul use pejoratives and insults as well? My language is much tamer than his.

So, let me say it again since you never answered me, ... Is it allowed under the rules of this forum to call people names, to insult them?

I didn't. I spoke the truth in love. And you never answered me. Who is deceiving you? Who is leading you astray from the truth?
If you are not willing to answer that question honestly, then produce a Baptist statement of faith that has the same basic beliefs that you do.

There is no doubt that we have a different perspective on the topic of Cessationism and Continualism in regard to miracles, signs and wonders.

If the sign gifts were in operation today there would be evidence of them.
You can't give evidence. That is as close to a hypocrite, if not a false teacher as one can come.

I say that what the Bible states about miracles, spiritual gifts, and the power of the Holy Spirit is the same today as it was in the days of the early church and you say that spiritual gifts have ceased.

If you have no evidence you are both a hypocrite and a false teacher. If you keep up teaching this on this board I will at least recommend that you leave the Baptist portion of this board, and post in the non-Baptist portions only. I don't believe you are a Baptist. Give me evidence.

It may surprise you, .... but I am certainly not alone in this view about spiritual gifts continuing, though it seems that I am in the minority on this forum.

You are alone in the way that you have presented your beliefs.
Give me evidence that the sign gifts are still continuing. If you can't do that then you are both a hypocrite and a false teacher. If they were in operation today we would see evidence, but there isn't any. Why? They have ceased.

Regardless of one's view of these issues, the use of perjoratives against a brother with whom you disagree is offensive and unnecessary.

Here is what Peter said:

And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? (Acts 13:10)

If you want me to use pejoratives I don't have to pull some little word out of my vocabulary; I can simply use the Bible.

 

[DHK]

For example, you have several times made the statement that the Bible says that spiritual gifts have ceased, and gave the reference 1 Cor 13:8 in suport of this. Upon examination, one reads in 1 Cor 13:8 that "tongues shall cease." The text DOES NOT SAY that tongues "HAVE" ceased. Nor does it say that any "spiritual gifts have ceased."

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
--These three revelatory gifts (prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge) shall all cease. The question is when; after all it was written ca. 55 A.D.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (1 Corinthians 13:9)
We (Paul and the believers at that time) knew in part. They had the OT, and maybe a couple of NT books, and that was all. They did not have NT revelation. They only knew in part. These are revelatory gifts. The context here is revelation. They only knew a part of the revelation of God; the OT.
Therefore he said: "we prophesy in part." The gift of prophesying was a gift given by God to impart NT revelation. To peoples of other languages it was imparted through the gift of tongues. "We know in part and we prophesy in part"

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:10)
--The word perfect in the Greek is "teleios", meaning complete. It is a word that is in the neuter gender which means it cannot refer to anything masculine such as Christ. It refers to the Word of God, the completed Word of God.
When that which is complete (the Word) is come, then that which is in part (temporary revelatory gifts) shall be done away.

No, you are adding something to the text with your faulty interpretation that is NOT THERE AT ALL.

I have not added anything. I have given you a brief exposition of that passage of Scripture. It is something that you stay away from.

Then, you express doubt that I am what I say I am because in your view what I say about spiritual gifts is not Baptist.

I know of no Baptist who believes like you do, and I don't believe you are one either. Therefore I ask you to produce your statement of faith that will collaborate your beliefs as Baptistic.

Well, I am certainly not your kind of Baptist ... I will grant you that.

The question has become if you are a Baptist at all. If you know the rules a person can be accepted even as a Charismatic if they apply honestly. But if I find out that you are a Charismatic and have applied as a Baptist you will be banned immediately. Deception on one's application is absolutely forbidden.

Surely you are not so naive as to think Baptists do not believe in spiritual gifts and miraculous answers to prayer today ....

1. I am not naive to the truth, to the Bible, and especially to Baptist belief, as I have been one for almost 40 years. Your beliefs do not line up with Baptist beliefs.
2. Your belief in sign gifts is a frivolous belief. You can't give any evidence of these gifts in operation today.
3. The last part of your statement is an ugly slur or else a statement born out of confusion and ignorance. Which do you choose.
I will tell you again what Baptists believe, and hope you understand.
We believe that God answers prayer, and heals according to his will in answer to prayer, even miraculously.
But I do not believe that anyone today has THE GIFT of healing today.

I personally know many Baptist who operate and function in spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues and prophecy. It is nothing new, ... just more and more as time progresses. God is pouring out His Spirit upon Baptists all across the country, oh, .. and in other countries too....

Your anecdotal experiences do not convince me of anything.

Oh, ... and I think I mentioned in a post how I was reading just two or three days ago about the great BAPTIST preacher Charles H Spurgeon giving a "word of knowledge" in the middle of a sermon. If you carefully read after Mr Spurgeon you will find several incidents of spiritual gifts functioning.

If that is true, then post a URL to where Spurgeon said such. You can find all of his sermons online. Prove to me that Spurgeon believed the sign gifts were for today.

 

[Paco]

I did not use a pejorative or an insult. It wasn't an insulting word for I used it quite sincerely, not in sarcasm.
I sincerely said to you that you are deceived, and then asked you who it was that deceived you? Who are the ones that have been leading you astray to believe such things? That is a sincere question. To say that you are deceived is a truth, not an insult.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (Galatians 3:1)
-Did Paul use pejoratives and insults as well? My language is much tamer than his.

Paco
So, let me say it again since you never answered me, ... Is it allowed under the rules of this forum to call people names, to insult them

Dhk
I didn't. I spoke the truth in love. And you never answered me. Who is deceiving you? Who is leading you astray from the truth?
If you are not willing to answer that question honestly, then produce a Baptist statement of faith that has the same basic beliefs that you do.

Paco
Sure you did. Your claim of sincerity or lack of sarcasm and love does not diminish or eliminate the offense of your insults. Paul’s question to the Galatians regarding their not obeying the truth does not justify your antagonism directed at me.

Dhk
Here is what Peter said:

And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? (Acts 13:10)

If you want me to use pejoratives I don't have to pull some little word out of my vocabulary; I can simply use the Bible.

Nor does Paul’s (not Peter, … read the Bible and quit relying on failing memory) rebuke of a sorcerer opposing the gospel validate your use of pejoratives against me. I am a Bible–believing Christian discussing Biblical issues on a Christian forum.

Do you remember my first post on this forum????

Paco
However, others are belligerent toward anyone who believes in spiritual gifts continuing to operate in the Church. They argue that those who believe in miracles and supernatural gifts are stupid, crazy, deceived, liars, or that they are demonized.

You have engaged in a personal attack against me, repeatedly calling me deceived, calling me a hypocrite, and accusing me of being dishonest and a false teacher for claiming to be a Baptist, … all because I take a stand in contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints, … saying that the Bible is true, that God has not changed, lied, or abrogated His promises, that miracles still happen, that the gifts and ministries Christ “set” in His Church are still in the Church today, that God still answers prayer with miracles, giving Scriptural support for every point, ... and you want to turn against me with this personal assault. Most Christian forums have rules to prevent this kind of behavior.

Dhk
You are alone in the way that you have presented your beliefs.

Haha …. You may convince yourself that I am alone in “my beliefs,” … but the reality is that I certainly am not. Wake up, open your eyes, and observe the world around you, … you will discover that there are millions of Christian believers all around the world who believe as I do.

While I admit that it looks like I am in the minority on this forum, (perhaps I am just the only one here bold to speak up and oppose the tide of anti-miracle bias here, … well, actually, I do remember one brother stating “Many Bible believing Christian theologians disagree with you.”), there is no doubt that there are many Baptists who believe just as I do. There is a great move of God among Baptists today with many being filled with the Spirit and operating in the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12:9-11. God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (including Baptists) just as He promised, and they are “prophesying”.

You can deny it all you want and make dogmatic assertions in opposition, yet the facts remain, Baptists, and other Christians too, both in the USA and overseas on the mission fields of the world, are practicing spiritual gifts, prophesying, speaking in tongues, casting out demons, and ministering healing to the sick.

Dhk
Give me evidence that the sign gifts are still continuing.

My emphasis in all of my postings has been giving Bible support for the continuation of miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts, and NOT my personal experiences or the experiences of others.

The fact is, if you reject what the Bible actually says about spiritual gifts, miracles, and God’s healing power, you will never admit to any evidence of them in anyone’s experience today.

As I heard a Black preacher once say, “There ain’t no man as blind as the man who won’t see.” If a miracle or a spiritual gift hit some people in the face they wouldn’t recognize or perceive it. Just like the crowd who were present when God spoke from heaven and said “It thundered.” “The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered” (John 12:29).

But if you will look around, it is easy to see many Baptists who are experiencing the reality of what I have been writing about in my posts. It is also easy to find many references to miracles, healings, deliverance form demons, and the operations of spiritual gifts in the writings of the church fathers testifying of them continuing in the centuries after the first century. Quotes of the church faithers can easily be found where they tell of miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts bringing God's power to people.

Dhk
I will tell you again what Baptists believe, and hope you understand.

Haha. I guess you are the one to teach me???? Am I mistaken or do I detect here an air of haughtiness, condescension, superiority ... in your words? Are you the expert on what Baptists believe? I guess your many years of study make you the official and authoritative voice of Baptists. I once heard the testimony of a man who was a preacher for 52 years before he got saved. His many years of study didn’t make him right either. It is the light of truth that makes one right, not how long he has been studying something.


No, brother, the Baptist umbrella is quite large, encompassing many varied positions in regard to belief and practice of many things, including spiritual gifts continuing today. I know several pastors and many church members of the churches in our association that have received the power of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. There are even some Calvinists in our association.

BTY, do you know anything about Dr. Jerry Rankin, the recently retired president of the International Mission Board????

“The president of the International Mission Board says he speaks in tongues during private prayers.”

Are you going to deny that he is a real Baptist????

While tongues is a controversial topic within Baptist circles with many opposed to it, there are many, many Baptists who believe that it is Scriptural and who practice it.

A Lifeway Research study a short time ago found that avery sizable number of Baptists believe in speaking in tongues, what many of us call "a private prayer language." And please be reminded, speaking in tongues is definitely included in the list of spiritual gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12.

Ed Stetzer, new director of LifeWay Research, noted there are two sizeable yet contradictory positions among SBC pastors. "One of the big findings of the study is that you've got a substantially cessationist portion of the Southern Baptist Convention, and then you have a large portion that believes that God gives some people a private prayer language,” he said. “And that middle ground is not that large. And I think that is an important finding in this study."

Results of the study showed that overall, 63 percent of Protestant senior pastors believe in the gift of a private prayer language. Within the SBC, 50 percent of pastors believe in the gift and 43 percent do not.
Non-SBC pastors are more likely to believe that the Holy Spirit gives some people a private prayer language than Southern Baptist pastors. According to the study, 66 percent of non-SBC pastors believe in the gifts while 32 percent saying they don't.

I recently read where Billy Graham was quoted …

he “endorsed laying on of hands, divine healing and tongues.” He said: “As we approach the end of the age I believe we will see a dramatic recurrence of signs and wonders, which will demonstrate the power of God to a skeptical world.”

One Baptist pastor, in the context of the IMB trustees action to ban speaking in tongues among missionaries (isn’t it strange that the greatest missionary Paul wouldn’t be allowed to serve in the IMB because he testified that he spoke in tongues???), said

"Are we now going to set a policy that says if God in his sovereignty gives someone a prayer language, we are now going to disqualify them?" says Rick White, pastor of the 6,000 member Baptist-affiliated People's Church in Franklin, Tenn.

White says he has never had the experience of speaking in tongues but members of his staff and congregation have.

Dhk
Prove to me that Spurgeon believed the sign gifts were for today.

You can read his autobiography for yourself and see where they operated in his life. You wouldn’t believe anything I showed you.

Now, ... I have to get some work done ... adios.

PS
Oh, ... did you ever provide an answer, ... what kind of missionary are you? Are you retired? Did you work with the IMB or some other agency?

 

[DHK]

Paco posted:

Do you remember my first post on this forum????

Paco
However, others are belligerent toward anyone who believes in spiritual gifts continuing to operate in the Church. They argue that those who believe in miracles and supernatural gifts are stupid, crazy, deceived, liars, or that they are demonized.

Yes Paco, I remember very will.
Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Your post here is one of the most insulting posts, full of pejoratives and attacks on certain members here, that I have ever read. Here you call people on this board:

stupid,
crazy,
deceived liars,
demonized.

If any other person had done this they would have received an infraction by now. I don't know why you didn't.

 

[DHK]

Paco
You have engaged in a personal attack against me, repeatedly calling me deceived, calling me a hypocrite, and accusing me of being dishonest and a false teacher for claiming to be a Baptist, … all because I take a stand in contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints,

1. I know what Baptists teach. I teach in a Baptist college.
2. What you teach is not Baptist doctrine. May I suggest you do a search on Baptist statements of faith (especially those that are IFB) and see how many state that they stand directly opposed to all that the Charismatic movement believes.
3. Claiming to be a Baptist and believing in non-baptist doctrine is not being a Baptist. It is being a charlatan, a deceiver, a hypocrite, whatever you want me to say. I have asked you repeatedly to show me a statement of faith from your Baptist Church that believes the same thing you do, and you have refused. Why?

… saying that the Bible is true, that God has not changed, lied, or abrogated His promises, that miracles still happen, that the gifts and ministries Christ “set” in His Church are still in the Church today, that God still answers prayer with miracles, giving Scriptural support for every point, ... and you want to turn against me with this personal assault. Most Christian forums have rules to prevent this kind of behavior.

God doesn't change, but his methods of dealing with individuals change in different periods of history.
He dealt with Adam and Eve before the Fall in a very different way than he did after the Fall or with us now. He spoke to them audibly, perhaps even more personally than that as they "walked together in the cool of the evening."
He dealt with Moses differently than He does with us.
He dealt with those that followed Moses than he does with us.
--They were under the law; we are under grace.
--They had to look forward to the cross in faith performing daily sacrifices.
--We look back to the cross in faith to that one sacrifice offered once and for all.
He will deal differently with those in His coming Kingdom of 1,000 year reign.

God doesn't change. But he deals differently with people at different times in history.
--In the first century Christ did miracles to demonstrate that he was God.
God also gave the apostles miracles to authenticate their ministry.
Beyond that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were very limited in their scope and nature, and completely died out by the end of the first century.

Haha …. You may convince yourself that I am alone in “my beliefs,” … but the reality is that I certainly am not. Wake up, open your eyes, and observe the world around you, … you will discover that there are millions of Christian believers all around the world who believe as I do.

If you are to remain whether on this board, or at least on this board, you must convince me that you are a Baptist. I teach in a Baptist College. Your beliefs do not adhere to Baptist Distinctives or beliefs. You are a Charismatic. No, you are not alone in your beliefs. But Baptists don't believe what you believe. You are also very confused between what is a gift and what God does in answer to prayer. They are not the same thing. How do you know that millions believe the same as you do? Did you survey each one individually? Your doctrine is so confused you don't know what you believe yourself.

While I admit that it looks like I am in the minority on this forum, (perhaps I am just the only one here bold to speak up and oppose the tide of anti-miracle bias here,

Another evidence that:
1. You don't know what you believe.
2. You don't know what others believe.
3. You certainly don't know what Baptists believe.
4. And you shouldn't go throwing around false accusations when you lie in ignorance about our beliefs. We are not anti-miracles. We believe that God works miracles. You don't grasp the difference between "the gift of miracles," and the fact that God works miracles today through answering the prayers of believers without having any supernatural gift as described in 1Cor.12.

… well, actually, I do remember one brother stating “Many Bible believing Christian theologians disagree with you.”), there is no doubt that there are many Baptists who believe just as I do.

How do you know that when you just demonstrated to us that you don't know what you believe?

There is a great move of God among Baptists today with many being filled with the Spirit and operating in the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12:9-11.

There is a movement of God among Baptists today in many places with the end result of believers being filled with the Spirit. I will agree with that.
But they are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit listed in 1Cor.12. Those gifts have ceased.

God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (including Baptists) just as He promised, and they are “prophesying”.

Is he turning the moon to blood as he promised as well. That is part of the same prophecy. Why not take the full passage in its context instead of just proof-texting.

You can deny it all you want and make dogmatic assertions in opposition, yet the facts remain, Baptists, and other Christians too, both in the USA and overseas on the mission fields of the world, are practicing spiritual gifts, prophesying, speaking in tongues, casting out demons, and ministering healing to the sick.

Show me one instance where people regularly practice speaking in tongues (foreign languages). If you can't you don't have the right to assert this claim again. You cannot make false claims. You cannot make claims without evidence. That is what false teachers do. That is how cults start. Don't give me any false claim about people speaking in Biblical tongues again unless you can provide evidence that it is done on a regular basis. Agreed?

My emphasis in all of my postings has been giving Bible support for the continuation of miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts, and NOT my personal experiences or the experiences of others.

You can't claim to be a healer and not be able to heal.
You can't claim to speak in tongues and not be able to speak in tongues.
You can't claim to do miracles and not be able to do miracles.
--People go to jail for such things. When people make false claims for products that they claim will do something that it won't do they pay fines, and in some cases go to jail. What you are doing is not only against the law, it is fraud, and dishonoring to our Lord. So don't tell me you go by the Bible. You don't. You are a fraud that can't back up your doctrine by demonstrating it. By the law you belong in Jail. By OT law, you would be stoned to death.

 

[DHK]

The fact is, if you reject what the Bible actually says about spiritual gifts, miracles, and God’s healing power, you will never admit to any evidence of them in anyone’s experience today.

I am all open to evidence; no one will show me any--especially you.

As I heard a Black preacher once say, “There ain’t no man as blind as the man who won’t see.” If a miracle or a spiritual gift hit some people in the face they wouldn’t recognize or perceive it. Just like the crowd who were present when God spoke from heaven and said “It thundered.” “The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered” (John 12:29).

A nice anecdote. It means nothing.

But if you will look around, it is easy to see many Baptists who are experiencing the reality of what I have been writing about in my posts. It is also easy to find many references to miracles, healings, deliverance form demons, and the operations of spiritual gifts in the writings of the church fathers testifying of them continuing in the centuries after the first century. Quotes of the church faithers can easily be found where they tell of miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts bringing God's power to people.

Former Baptists have become J.W.'s
Former Baptists have become Pentecostals.
Former Baptists have become Catholics.
--Yes, there are some that depart from the faith. It was happening in the first century. All of the writers of the NT warned it would happen. It is nothing new. The acceptance of non-Baptist doctrine (like RCC doctrine) does not mean one is a Baptist any longer. They have converted to Catholicism. Please understand that. You cannot be both.
I don't follow the teaching of the ECF. Many of them believed in gross error. One of them believed Jesus lived to the age of 80. Another set the stage for belief in purgatory. Why should I believe them when I have the Bible? You still lack knowledge in what is a miracle, and what is "the gift of miracles." You are confused and don't know what you believe.

Haha. I guess you are the one to teach me???? Am I mistaken or do I detect here an air of haughtiness, condescension, superiority ... in your words? Are you the expert on what Baptists believe? I guess your many years of study make you the official and authoritative voice of Baptists.

Yes, I am an expert on what Baptists believe. I teach in a Baptist College. I have taught courses in Baptist Polity which includes Baptist Distinctives. I have also taught courses in World Religions and in Cults. You fit into one of the latter, not into the beliefs of a Baptist. That is why I keep asking you for your church statement of faith.

I once heard the testimony of a man who was a preacher for 52 years before he got saved. His many years of study didn’t make him right either. It is the light of truth that makes one right, not how long he has been studying something.

At least God got ahold of his heart before it was too late. Praise God for that.

No, brother, the Baptist umbrella is quite large, encompassing many varied positions in regard to belief and practice of many things, including spiritual gifts continuing today. I know several pastors and many church members of the churches in our association that have received the power of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. There are even some Calvinists in our association.

You don't know anyone that speaks in Biblical tongues. You would provide solid evidence if you did. If you mean the Baptist umbrella is quite large there are people who attach the name Baptist but are not Baptist. For a short period of time we had a homosexual that pastored a Baptist church. I don't consider his church Baptist. I don't consider those churches that have female pastors as Baptist churches thought they have the name Baptist. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. And I will consider you the same way until you can prove otherwise.

BTY, do you know anything about Dr. Jerry Rankin, the recently retired president of the International Mission Board????

Don't know anything about him or his board. The board doesn't even have the name Baptist in it. Am I supposed to be familiar with it?

Are you going to deny that he is a real Baptist????

I don't know who he is; I make no comment.

While tongues is a controversial topic within Baptist circles with many opposed to it, there are many, many Baptists who believe that it is Scriptural and who practice it.

Prove to me that people practice Biblical tongues on a regular basis. If you can't provide the evidence then stop making false claims. Stop making claims that would get you stoned under OT law, and get you put into jail in the real world. If you developed a cream and sold it claiming it would make middle-aged and elderly people look 10-15 years younger, when it didn't, what do you think would happen to you? If you sold a medicine that was "a sure cure for cancer" when it wasn't, what do you think would happen to you?

A Lifeway Research study a short time ago found that avery sizable number of Baptists believe in speaking in tongues, what many of us call "a private prayer language." And please be reminded, speaking in tongues is definitely included in the list of spiritual gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12.

But you cannot give any evidence of anyone speaking regularly in Biblical tongues, can you?

 

[Amy.G]

Paco posted:

Yes Paco, I remember very will.
Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Your post here is one of the most insulting posts, full of pejoratives and attacks on certain members here, that I have ever read. Here you call people on this board:

stupid,
crazy,
deceived liars,
demonized.

If any other person had done this they would have received an infraction by now. I don't know why you didn't.

He did no such thing. He said that some people who believe that all gifts have ceased call him those names.

 

[preacher4truth]

He did no such thing. He said that some people who believe that all gifts have ceased call him those names.

Yep. You're correct.

This would actually be "Pot" mistaking another as a "Kettle" and calling it black.

 

[DHK]

He did no such thing. He said that some people who believe that all gifts have ceased call him those names.

Paco entered this discussion back on page 12. His post was very contentious, one of the most contentious that I have seen for a first post.
Here is the first part of the post:

Is a person’s belief about spiritual gifts essential to fellowship????
Well, my answer depends on the attitude of the person we are dealing with.

Some people who do not believe in spiritual gifts are just without knowledge of them, … their value, their importance, or how they operate. These folk would be civil in any discussions regarding the nature of gifts and miracles continuing.

However, others are belligerent toward anyone who believes in spiritual gifts continuing to operate in the Church. They argue that those who believe in miracles and supernatural gifts are stupid, crazy, deceived, liars, or that they are demonized.

In the context of the post, those who are cessationists, those who do not believe the spiritual gifts are for today:


1. Paco would never fellowship with them.


2. They are belligerent towards others.

3. They argue that others are stupid, crazy, deceived, liars or demonized.


Note that Paco shouldn't be here because he said that he would not fellowship with those who do not believe the spiritual gifts are for today.



In post #127 Paco says this:

In actuality, Christ Himself did not always get every sick person healed. Though there were occasions in His ministry when we are told that “as many as touched [Him]” were healed, there were times when there were a multitude of sick folk present and Christ healed only one person.

There is no place in the Bible where Christ did not heal all that came to him. This was his rebuttal to the supposed people who have the gift of healing today but can't heal all that come to him. He says that not even Jesus could do that.



The very fact that Paco claims to be a Baptist and would never fellowship with the majority of Baptists (those who repudiate sign gifts for today), makes me question his claim to be a Baptist.

 

[Paco]

--People go to jail for such things. When people make false claims for products that they claim will do something that it won't do they pay fines, and in some cases go to jail. What you are doing is not only against the law, it is fraud, and dishonoring to our Lord. So don't tell me you go by the Bible. You don't. You are a fraud that can't back up your doctrine by demonstrating it. By the law you belong in Jail. By OT law, you would be stoned to death.

Wow!!!

It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood ….

You are a moderator on this forum and you call for my arrest and death by stoning???? You seem unqualified for serving as a moderator ....Your insular rhetoric is over the top …. And very unbecoming for one who claims to be a Christian.


Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I have been called many names on Christian forums, but this is the first time someone pretending to be a Christian has called for my death.

I don't think I have ever encountered such hateful, vile, diatribe on a "Christian" forum.

Have you ever read any books by Glenn Beck???? He has an interesting title to a recent book that I am reminded of as come to the realization that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with Mr dhk.

I will not continue this discussion with you.

 

[DHK]

Wow!!!

It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood ….

You are a moderator on this forum and you call for my arrest and death by stoning???? You seem unqualified for serving as a moderator ....Your insular rhetoric is over the top …. And very unbecoming for one who claims to be a Christian.


Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I have been called many names on Christian forums, but this is the first time someone pretending to be a Christian has called for my death.

I don't think I have ever encountered such hateful, vile, diatribe on a "Christian" forum.

Have you ever read any books by Glenn Beck???? He has an interesting title to a recent book that I am reminded of as come to the realization that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with Mr dhk.

I will not continue this discussion with you.

You are over-reacting. I am simply giving you the logical conclusion of your statements.

If I make statements that the moon is made of green cheese and little men live there constantly spying on you, what would you say?
You would think that I am crazy unless I could provide empirical evidence to show you that it is true.

I believe your beliefs are entirely unscriptural. Why? One of the main reasons is you can't provide any empirical evidence to prove their veracity. You can say that the gifts are in operation but you can't point to them being in operation. Don't you see the absurdity of your case.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

3. Claiming to be a Baptist and believing in non-baptist doctrine is not being a Baptist. It is being a charlatan, a deceiver, a hypocrite, whatever you want me to say. I have asked you repeatedly to show me a statement of faith from your Baptist Church that believes the same thing you do, and you have refused.

I wonder if you have ever read Martyn Lloyd-Jones books ---Revival & Joy Unspeakable? If you have, than how would you categorize him?

BTW, how would you categorize Jesus Fan, his pastor & his church?

 

[DHK]

Wow!!!
You are a moderator on this forum and you call for my arrest and death by stoning???? You seem unqualified for serving as a moderator ....Your insular rhetoric is over the top …. And very unbecoming for one who claims to be a Christian.

It may interest you to know that the founder of Jehovah's Witness, was on trial for adultery. The matter of his religion came into question. He was asked if he could read Greek. He said "yes, I can." When I Greek NT was placed in front of him he was unable to read it. He was accused of perjury, and sent out of Canada.

He claimed to be able to read Greek in a court of law.
He couldn't provide the proof.
That made him the laughingstock of those there, and one who was guilty of just one more crime.

You cannot provide the proof, the evidence of the things you claim.

 

[DHK]

I wonder if you have ever read Martyn Lloyd-Jones books ---Revival & Joy Unspeakable? If you have, than how would you categorize him?

BTW, how would you categorize Jesus Fan, his pastor & his church?

They don't claim that they can do the miracles Jesus did.
Nor do they so adamantly affirm that they can replicate the sign gifts in the same way the apostles did.