Do you see Two Different levels of the Holy spirit Among believers today?

[Iconoclast]

any recommendations for which authors to read?

Just curious...

Do you hold to it being for ALL believers in Christ, as the filling of the HS, or is it referencing HS placing us spiritually into Body of Christ once reborn?

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

many fillings...one baptism

 

[Iconoclast]

...there are only different levels manifested, because of the different levels of belief and acceptance by the multitudes who have been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost can only do, and WILL only do, that which the person is willing and able to allow.

If tongues are present, that is because that is a choice. If tongues are rejected, that is a choice. If laying on of hands is practiced, it is because it is accepted, If people reject having hands laid on them, so be it, too!

This can go on forever. The Spirit can only do what the person is willing to be amenable to having done in and through them. So, there are probably MANY levels of what the Spirit does in and through others!

I have found God to be a respecter of those who love and follow Him. Like the artist of Christ at the Door portrays, the handle for the door is on the side of the believer, not the side on which Jesus stands and knocks.

We must first be willing to be indwelled with the presence of the Holy Ghost, and then trusting enough, in faith, to allow him to manifest those gifts and loose the range of those gifts within each of us. For instance, you can't have the gift of preaching, if you don't believe in His power to indwell the preacher and manifest the spoken word through that person (plus you must believe in the calling to preach)! SELAH!!!

This is watered down word of faith doctrine.

 

[righteousdude2]

Imho...

So would you agree or disagree with the following statements:

1. A person could desire and believe in tongues, but God not grant that gift for some reason.

2. A person could desire and believe and pray for God to heal someone, and God decides not to heal the person.

3. If a person does not manifest tongues, it is due to some deficiency of faith on their part, such that we may say a person who does not manifest tongues has less faith and godliness than someone who does.

(for me, I would say 1 & 2 could be true, 3 would be false).

I would have to go along with number-one and two; however, number-three is the kind of rationale and theology behind the Word of Faith/Name it Claim it folks, and I do not believe a gift, not manifested, or not fully manifested, has anything to do with a person's godliness of faith.

As I said in my post, God will not impose His gifts upon any of His Children if they do not want that gift, or portions of that gift.

That my friend is what makes the body so unique. We have tones of people, gifted in many ways and forms, and it is the entirety of the gifts in each person that make up for the body as a whole.

 

[robertguwapito]

Awesome, I have a troll.

Hi Plain and Simple :smilewinkgrin:

1st Corinthians 12:13 says, "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

The Bible teaches that there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that baptism happens when one is saved. So every genuine Christian has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

This second phenomena or experience that you do believe in is a Pentecostal teaching and doctrine. And as practiced by Pentecostals, when they receive this "secondary" baptism, they speak in tongues, ARE SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT, GET DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT, LAUGH UNCONTROLLABLY (HOLY LAUGHTER), MAKE ANIMAL SOUNDS, ROLL ON THE CARPET, etc...

Scripture should verify experience, and not the other way around. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[righteousdude2]

Pardon Me, but.......

Hi Plain and Simple :smilewinkgrin:

1st Corinthians 12:13 says, "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

The Bible teaches that there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that baptism happens when one is saved. So every genuine Christian has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

This second phenomena or experience that you do believe in is a Pentecostal teaching and doctrine. And as practiced by Pentecostals, when they receive this "secondary" baptism, they speak in tongues, ARE SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT, GET DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT, LAUGH UNCONTROLLABLY (HOLY LAUGHTER), MAKE ANIMAL SOUNDS, ROLL ON THE CARPET, etc...

Scripture should verify experience, and not the other way around. :smilewinkgrin:

.....you are a littel off about several of your premises.

1) The gift of tongues is part and parcel of the initial Baptism, There is, IMHO, NO second phenomena. At least that I am aware of.

2) As for: Being SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT ( something similar took place when the Roman soldiers went to arrest Jesus, and they asked where Jesus was, and when His presence was made known, they were knocked off their feet, humbled before Him).

Getting "DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT, LAUGHING UNCONTROLLABLY (HOLY LAUGHTER), MAKING ANIMAL SOUNDS, and ROLLING ON THE CARPET" are nothing more than theatrical/dramatic hysterics on behalf of the WOF/Name it Claim it (NiCi) crowd.

There is no Scripture to support these behaviors. Some spirit-filled persons take being spirit filled WAY Toooooooooooo far. However, then again, some believers in every denomination (Westboro Baptist church for one) make a complete donkey butt out of their doctrinal stands, practices, and beliefs.

We don't toss out the bushel because there are a few bad apples in it. We selectively go through what we have, and spiritually discern, examine, inspect and scrutinize what we find in order to remain on the mark. :thumbsup:

 

[righteousdude2]

It is what it is...

This is watered down word of faith doctrine.

....but I assure you that I am not WOF. If however, you choose to believe it is WOF-light, than so be it, because you have a definite opinion that is unreasonable and not wavering.

However, I would prefer that you cease with your accusations of my words as being "watered down WOF doctrine." What you believe is up to you...what I believe is up to me. I can assure you that neither of us will be cast into hell for believing the way we do, because what our foundation is built upon is that we are both saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:

 

[robertguwapito]

.....you are a littel off about several of your premises.

1) The gift of tongues is part and parcel of the initial Baptism, There is, IMHO, NO second phenomena. At least that I am aware of.
2) As for: Being SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT ( something similar took place when the Roman soldiers went to arrest Jesus, and they asked where Jesus was, and when His presence was made known, they were knocked off their feet, humbled before Him).

Getting "DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT, LAUGHING UNCONTROLLABLY (HOLY LAUGHTER), MAKING ANIMAL SOUNDS, and ROLLING ON THE CARPET" are nothing more than theatrical/dramatic hysterics on behalf of the WOF/Name it Claim it (NiCi) crowd.


There is no Scripture to support these behaviors. Some spirit-filled persons take being spirit filled WAY Toooooooooooo far. However, then again, some believers in every denomination (Westboro Baptist church for one) make a complete donkey butt out of their doctrinal stands, practices, and beliefs.

We don't toss out the bushel because there are a few bad apples in it. We selectively go through what we have, and spiritually discern, examine, inspect and scrutinize what we find in order to remain on the mark. :thumbsup:

Dear Righteous Dude,

1. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost referred to by Plain N Simple and the majority of Pentecostals is a secondary experience. By implication, if you haven't experienced it, you're kinda a second-class Christian (those who have it, those who haven't). But Christ makes us complete.
2. The Roman soldiers did not experience being slain in the Spirit. No such incident happened: "Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him..." (John 18:12).
I assure you, you wouldn't want to be Slain in the Spirit the biblical way--remember Ananias and Saphira?
3. The Slain in the Spirit, Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter phenomena belong to the same bunch of crazy, dangerous, and unbliblical Pentecostal practices. They are spirit-filled allright--but of a demonic spirit.

:thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

Check this out...

Dear Righteous Dude,

1. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost referred to by Plain N Simple and the majority of Pentecostals is a secondary experience. By implication, if you haven't experienced it, you're kinda a second-class Christian (those who have it, those who haven't). But Christ makes us complete.
2. The Roman soldiers did not experience being slain in the Spirit. No such incident happened: "Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him..." (John 18:12). SEE BELOW ATTACHEMENT...IT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES!!!I assure you, you wouldn't want to be Slain in the Spirit the biblical way--remember Ananias and Saphira? I BELIEVE THAT WAS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT JOHN 12;6 SHOWS AS HAPPENING...
3. The Slain in the Spirit, Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter phenomena belong to the same bunch of crazy, dangerous, and unbliblical Pentecostal practices. They are spirit-filled allright--but of a demonic spirit. I AGREE TO SOME EXTENT!
QUOTE]


ABOVE EMPHASIS IN RED IS MINE...:wavey:


You may want to read the entire text, especially verses 4-6 as noted below. This is the part that I am speaking of, as it reads "Whom are you seeking?” They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground." :wavey:

Thanks for your kind and polite words of rebuttal. I have enjoyed your views.

 

[robertguwapito]

Dear Righteous Dude,

1. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost referred to by Plain N Simple and the majority of Pentecostals is a secondary experience. By implication, if you haven't experienced it, you're kinda a second-class Christian (those who have it, those who haven't). But Christ makes us complete.
2. The Roman soldiers did not experience being slain in the Spirit. No such incident happened: "Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him..." (John 18:12). SEE BELOW ATTACHEMENT...IT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES!!!I assure you, you wouldn't want to be Slain in the Spirit the biblical way--remember Ananias and Saphira? I BELIEVE THAT WAS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT JOHN 12;6 SHOWS AS HAPPENING...
3. The Slain in the Spirit, Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter phenomena belong to the same bunch of crazy, dangerous, and unbliblical Pentecostal practices. They are spirit-filled allright--but of a demonic spirit. I AGREE TO SOME EXTENT!
QUOTE]


ABOVE EMPHASIS IN RED IS MINE...:wavey:


You may want to read the entire text, especially verses 4-6 as noted below. This is the part that I am speaking of, as it reads "Whom are you seeking?” They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground." :wavey:

Thanks for your kind and polite words of rebuttal. I have enjoyed your views.

Hello Righteous Dude :wavey:

You're right, I forgot about verses 4-6 :tonofbricks:.

Well I looked it up in one commentary (there I go again), Barnes Notes on the Bible, and this is what theologian Barnes has to say, "They went backward ... - The cause of their retiring in this manner is not mentioned. Various things might have produced it. The frank, open, and fearless manner in which Jesus addressed them may have convinced them of his innocence, and deterred them from prosecuting their wicked attempt. His disclosure of himself was sudden and unexpected; and while they perhaps anticipated that he would make an effort to escape, they were amazed at his open and bold profession. Their consciences reproved them for their crimes, and probably the firm, decided, and yet mild manner in which Jesus addressed them, the expression of his unequalled power in knowing how to find the way to the consciences of men, made them feel that they were in the presence of more than mortal man. There is no proof that there was here any miraculous power, any mere physical force, and to suppose that there was greatly detracts from the moral sublimity of the scene."

I also looked at Clarke's Commentary on the Bible (there I go again and again) and this is what Clarke says, "They went backward, and fell to the ground - None of the other evangelists mentions this very important circumstance. Our Lord chose to give them this proof of his infinite power, that they might know that their power could not prevail against him if he chose to exert his might, seeing that the very breath of his mouth confounded, drove back, and struck them down to the earth. Thus by the blast of God they might have perished, and by the breath of his nostrils they might have been consumed: Job 4:9."

I would say that if they were slain in the Spirit by today's standards, they wouldn't have been able to recover quickly and arrest him, because they would have been paralyzed and in ecstasy for a quite a long time (just like in a Benny Hinn event).

Thank you for your kind and gracious words

Robert

 

[DaChaser1]

...there are only different levels manifested, because of the different levels of belief and acceptance by the multitudes who have been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Bible states to us ALL though have the same "level" of the Holy Spirit when born anew, option to us is IF we we will experience His infilling empowering, or just have him idwelling us!

The Holy Ghost can only do, and WILL only do, that which the person is willing and able to allow.

So we are incontrol of Him, not Him sovereign over/in us?

If tongues are present, that is because that is a choice. If tongues are rejected, that is a choice. If laying on of hands is practiced, it is because it is accepted, If people reject having hands laid on them, so be it, too!

ALL spiritual gifts are as HS Himself determines that we will need them, so its HIS choice if we are to tongue,not ours!

This can go on forever. The Spirit can only do what the person is willing to be amenable to having done in and through them. So, there are probably MANY levels of what the Spirit does in and through others!

I have found God to be a respecter of those who love and follow Him. Like the artist of Christ at the Door portrays, the handle for the door is on the side of the believer, not the side on which Jesus stands and knocks.

We must first be willing to be indwelled with the presence of the Holy Ghost, and then trusting enough, in faith, to allow him to manifest those gifts and loose the range of those gifts within each of us. For instance, you can't have the gift of preaching, if you don't believe in His power to indwell the preacher and manifest the spoken word through that person (plus you must believe in the calling to preach)! SELAH!!!

He grants the christian all of his gifts at rebirth, and we can chose wether to relying upon His empowering to live for christ, or our own strenght, but we ALL get same HS and same amount of Him!

 

[convicted1]

That ALL are indwelt, just SOME have the 'baptism of Holy Ghost?"

IF so, how would you define that doctrine as being?

There are not two baptisms of the Holy Ghost. When we are saved, we get the Holy Ghost in His completeness. We all, as believers, have the same amount of the Holy Ghost.

 

[plain_n_simple]

I'm not sure if I've seen different of levels of the Spirit, but I have seen people getting healed by a pastor that has never spoke in tongues, and I've heard another speak in tongues that healed a woman who was deaf. I try not to put the Spirit in a box of ridgid rules, but look at scripture. Jesus restored sight with mud one time, and without mud another.


Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 

[Iconoclast]

....but I assure you that I am not WOF. If however, you choose to believe it is WOF-light, than so be it, because you have a definite opinion that is unreasonable and not wavering.

However, I would prefer that you cease with your accusations of my words as being "watered down WOF doctrine." What you believe is up to you...what I believe is up to me. I can assure you that neither of us will be cast into hell for believing the way we do, because what our foundation is built upon is that we are both saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:

Dude...let me put it this way....your post was riddled with unbiblical thought.

We must first be willing to be indwelled with the presence of the Holy Ghost, and then trusting enough, in faith, to allow him to manifest those gifts and loose the range of those gifts within each of us

Sign gifts have ceased...it is not a matter of .....they cease if you think they ceased...or they manifest if you feel like they manifest....this is no where taught in scripture when gifts were manifest. I do hear false teachers in our day say this however.

At pentecost.... gifts ,signs and wonders were manifest by the Spirit alongside of apostolic preaching, and right through the whole book of Acts.

No where was this kind of reasoning expressed in Acts as you offer here.

Yes...as you say;

What you believe is up to you...what I believe is up to me

this statement is subjective and also unbiblical;

As I said in my post, God will not impose His gifts upon any of His Children if they do not want that gift, or portions of that gift

Can you show me that in Acts 2? can you show that anywhere in Acts??
anywhere in scripture???

 

[righteousdude2]

It Is Best Not to Feed ....

Dude...let me put it this way....your post was riddled with unbiblical thought.



Sign gifts have ceased...it is not a matter of .....they cease if you think they ceased...or they manifest if you feel like they manifest....this is no where taught in scripture when gifts were manifest. I do hear false teachers in our day say this however.

At pentecost.... gifts ,signs and wonders were manifest by the Spirit alongside of apostolic preaching, and right through the whole book of Acts.

No where was this kind of reasoning expressed in Acts as you offer here.

Yes...as you say;


this statement is subjective and also unbiblical;


Can you show me that in Acts 2? can you show that anywhere in Acts??
anywhere in scripture???

...the pig...:smilewinkgrin:

Let me just say, that there are many among you (yes, on this board, oh my gosh, please say it ain't true!) who disagree, and practice the gifts as they have been distributed.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Lol, pigs need love too....

 

[Iconoclast]

...the pig...:smilewinkgrin:

That would be if there were any pearls around....but you are not showing any.


Looks like we cannot find such things in Acts at all.or anywhere else...but TBN.

What "gifts' do you claim to be practicing??

 

[plain_n_simple]

...the pig...:smilewinkgrin:

Let me just say, that there are many among you (yes, on this board, oh my gosh, please say it ain't true!) who disagree, and practice the gifts as they have been distributed.

I believe that.

 

[righteousdude2]

NOTE to those who are not so OPINIONATED.

Looks like we cannot find such things in Acts at all.or anywhere else...but TBN.

You found me out....While I am not a fan, or follower of TBN. I do watch it once a week to get my spiritual fix of Billy Graham Crusades, past! :thumbsup:

What "gifts' do you claim to be practicing??

Well, I'd say, but you'd be making fun of it, so there's no use casting my pearls before the swine! BTW - It looks like you made an attempt to utilize the gift of discernment, for which I applaud you. Check out this verse, as you may glean something from it for future attempts to judge others for their faith in operating in the gifts - “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." Matthew 7:5-7

:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey dude...clear your mail box...it says it is full....tried to send a response to your pm...said it was full

by the way...everyone has an opinion dude......your use [or misuse of Mt 7] shows you have an opinion...that i do not share....
you can claim to be " moving in whatever you think your moving in" but this again is unbiblical terminology....used by the many false teachers in our day. again not in scripture, not in Acts of the Apostles

 

[plain_n_simple]

Iconoclast, this is not to start a fight, or derail this thread, but I'd like to know what scripture you use and teaching that the gifts has ceased. I will not respond, just curious.