Doctrine of the Trinity - Stated or Implied?

[JonC]

In a recent post @Martin Marprelate challenged me that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in Scripture but that truth is instead implied. My argument is that we do not make doctrine out of implication, but instead seek Scripture itself as our authority (anyone can say something is implied). I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is stated in Scripture and systematically gathered into doctrine.

Here are a few (there are more) verses I believe demonstrates that God is Father, Son, and Spirit:

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9)

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19)

“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

“When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased”. (Luke 3:21-22)

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 2)

 

[thatbrian]

In a recent post @Martin Marprelate challenged me that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in Scripture but that truth is instead implied. My argument is that we do not make doctrine out of implication, but instead seek Scripture itself as our authority (anyone can say something is implied). I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is stated in Scripture and systematically gathered into doctrine.

Here are a few (there are more) verses I believe demonstrates that God is Father, Son, and Spirit:

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9)

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19)

“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

“When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased”. (Luke 3:21-22)

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 2)

None of those texts state or prove that there is a triune deity.

Jesus being referred to as "Son" could certainly mean that He was created, right? That's how it works on Earth.

The Spirit as a helper or advocate certainly doesn't have to mean that He is also a deity.

The doctrine of the Trinity is formed by implication.

 

[JonC]

None of those texts state or prove that there is a triune deity.

Jesus being referred to as "Son" could certainly mean that He was created, right? That's how it works on Earth.

The Spirit as a helper or advocate certainly doesn't have to mean that He is also a deity.

The doctrine of the Trinity is formed by implication.

It could. Except that Scripture also identifies Christ as God.

"In the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was with God and the Logos was God" and "all things are created through Him" (John 1). "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1). "I and the Father are one". (John 10:30).

I believe that Scripture states (not implies) that Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit was active in creation (Genesis 1:2). Of the Spirit Christ testifies in John 14 "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning." "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

I believe this testifies that the Spirit is God. All that the Father has so also has the Son. All the Son has so also has the Spirit.

If this is true, then Scripture testifies that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all God.

 

[HankD]

FWIW, I suppose I am one of a few who support 1 John 5:7 (the Johannine Comma) as scripture.

John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) - King James Version Today

Also see:

A History of the Debate Over 1 John 5:7-8,Michael Maynard,Comma Publications.1995.

HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In a recent post @Martin Marprelate challenged me that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in Scripture but that truth is instead implied. My argument is that we do not make doctrine out of implication, but instead seek Scripture itself as our authority (anyone can say something is implied). I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is stated in Scripture and systematically gathered into doctrine.

Here are a few (there are more) verses I believe demonstrates that God is Father, Son, and Spirit:

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9)

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19)

“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

“When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased”. (Luke 3:21-22)

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 2)

Certainly they demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity, but none of them state the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no post that says, I am a Trinity, Yours sincerely, God. And that is the sort of thing you are demanding concerning Penal Substitution.

I assume you know the provenance, or lack of it, of 1 John 5:7. Do you really think you would convince a Unitarian with that?

[Actually, there is nothing in any of those verses that clearly states, in the Greek, the Personality of the Spirit. You have to go to verses like Acts 5:3-4 and Ephesians 4:30 for that]

 

[HankD]

Here is a very helpful book:

OF COMMUNION WITH GOD THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST, EACH PERSON DISTINCTLY, IN LOVE, GRACE AND CONSOLATION;
OR, THE SAINTS’ FELLOWSHIP WITH THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST UNFOLDED.

by John Owen, Oxford University, 1657.

Years ago, I was truly blessed by reading it. Will be reading it again this Christmas season.
It's online, it's free, download it before it goes away.

Merry Christmas!

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/John Owen Communion with Father Son & Holy Ghost.pdf

HankD

 

[agedman]

Why is this a matter of debate?

Do you not sing, "Holy, Holy, Holy" occasionally?

Is not the essence of Heaven heard in the three declarations of "Holy?"

The proof is not "I am a trinity," anymore than a doctrinal statement says, "I am a doctrinal statement."

The proof is evidenced the same as true faith is evidenced - by the work.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

MATTHEW 28:19

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptise them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Note, Jesus says, "to onoma", "The Name", that is "One Name", and not "ta onomata", the plural, "The Names", "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". What, then is "The Name", that Jesus says, belongs to Himself, and the Father and Holy Spirit? We read in Exodus chapter 3, where Moses asks Almighty God for His "Name". To which God replies, "Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh", which is best rendered into English as, "I am that I am" (ver.14). The Greek version of the Old Testament (The Septuagint), which was done some 150 years before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, has it, "ego eimi ho on", "I am the Eternal One". The Name of God, “Yahweh” in the Hebrew is, “the one bringing into life, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, the one who is, i.e., the absolute unchangeable one, the existing, ever living” (F Brown, S R Driver and C A Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon, p.218) When God tells Moses that “I am has sent you” (verse 14), He is giving His Name, “Yahweh” as the “Eternal, Self-existing, All-powerful, Creator God”, as He said in Isaiah, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name” (42:8). The Name which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 28:19, no doubt is "Yahweh".

It should also be noted, that, even though Jesus says "Name", (singular), the Greek text that follows is also very important: "tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Hagiou Pneumatos", where the Greek "article" (tou), is repeated, to show that a "distinction" of Persons is meant. Yet, as YAHWEH they have ONE NAME. It is impossible for any created being to have the same “Name” of Almighty God. No one doubts that the Father is God, and therefore “eternal and uncreated” (Yahweh). The fact that here we have both Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, Two distinct Persons, together with the Father, where They have the SAME NAME of ALMIGHTY GOD, can only teach us that the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is Biblical, and not an invention of the early Church.

From, http://www.trinitystudies.org/HolySpirit/DeityoftheHolySpirit.pdf

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

ACTS 5: 3, 4, 9

"But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...You have not lied to man, but to God...How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord”

This is one of the clearest passages in the Holy Bible, testifying to the Deity of the Holy Spirit. Peter here charges Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit (to pneuma to hagion). And then makes the charge even stronger, when he informs Ananias that his falsehood was not to “anthropois”, that is, “a human being”, but, to ALMIGHTY GOD. Note in the Greek Peter does not say, “theoi”, which such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others, may reduce its meaning to “god”, as they do with John 1:1, “and the Word was a god”, which has nothing to do with the Greek grammar of the text, but to support their false “theology” on the Person of Jesus Christ. But, here in Acts, we have the use of the Greek article, “toi” (toi theoi), “THE GOD”. Later in this passage, when Peter is speaking to Ananias’ wife, Sapphira, he says that they both, “agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord (to pneuma kupiou)”. Not only do we have this wonderful testimony to the Holy Spirit’s Deity, but also another important fact is established in this passage, which is the Personality of the Holy Spirit.

There are some, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who teach “doctrine of demons”, when they say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than “an active force” of Jehovah. Such is their blasphemy. If, has they blaspheme, that the Holy Spirit is “impersonal”, they how can it be possible for Peter, who is speaking under the inspiration of Almighty God, say that the Holy Spirit, was “lied to” and “tempted”, something only possible of a PERSONAL BEING?

The Greek word for “lied”, which is used in verses 3 and 4 for the Holy Spirit, is the verb, “pseudomai”, which Dr Joseph Thayer, in his Greek-English lexicon, so defines, “to deceive one by a lie, to lie to, Act 5:3… like verbs of saying, with a dative of the person, Act 5:4” (page 675. emphasis mine). Dr Thayer’s words are quite important here, as he was a Unitarian, and denied the Personality of the Holy Sprit, as he did His Deity. But, as we can see from his definition of the Greek verb used in Acts 5, that it is here used “of the person”. Dr Thayer is here showing what the Greek word actually says, even though it contradicts his own “theology” on the Person of the Holy Spirit. At least he is being honest here, unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who blatantly use lies to promote their own heresies.

From, http://www.trinitystudies.org/HolySpirit/DeityoftheHolySpirit.pdf

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

2 JOHN 9

"Anyone who transgresses, and abides not in the teaching of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the teaching of Christ, this has both the Father and the Son" – verse 9

Note very closely the language here. In the first instance, those who transgress by not remaining in the Doctrine of Christ, are said not to possess God. On the other hand, those who do so remain in the Doctrine of Christ, are said to possess “both the Father and the Son”. We would have expected John to have written, “this has God”, which would correspond with the previous sentence, where he spoke of those who transgress, as having “not God”. But, this he does not do. While using the Name, God, in the first instance. John then expands on this by saying that BOTH the Father and the Son, are this one use of God! Equally.

This is exactly what we read of the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter five. Where in verse three Peter tells Ananias that he had “lied to the Holy Spirit”. And, yet in the following verse, to show the severity of this, Peter says, “you have not lied to man, but to God”. Firstly, the Personality of the Holy Spirit (Greek, to pneuma to hagion) is clearly shown here. As it is impossible for anyone to “deceive” (Greek verb, pseudo, “to deceive by lies”) an “impersonal” thing, as those like the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach concerning the Holy Spirit, which is blasphemy. Further, Peter says that Ananias’ great sin was not against some “mere” human being, BUT, against “God”. Note in the Greek the article used “toi theoi”, clearly speaking of the Deity of the Holy Spirit. Like our verse in 2 John, we would have expected Peter to have said, “you have not lied to man, but to the Holy Spirit”. While this is what he does mean, yet he went further by here calling the Holy Spirit ALMIGHTY GOD, as does John in his second Epistle.

Coming back to our text, let us examine it from the Greek text. Interestingly, the use of “Theos” here is without the definite article. Would any dare render this in English as “god”?. John then says in the sentence that we are looking at, “kai ton petera kai ton huion echei”. = “has both the Father and the Son”. The first use of the particle, kai, has the meaning “both”, where those referred to must be taken together, and without any distinction. And the second use, its common one, “and”. We then have the case, where each of the nouns in the sentence, here, Father and Son, is with the definite article, “ton” (the). This, according to the strict rules of Greek grammar, clearly shows that the two Persons are not one and the same. The Father, as a Person, is not the same as the Son as a Person. They are separate Persons. A long while back, this “rule” was laid down by the Greek scholar, Granville Sharpe, and still holds true today.

"When the copulative kai (and) connects two nouns of the same case, if the article ho (the) or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person"( Granville Sharp; Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, Containing many proofs of the Divinity of Christ, page 8)

While the grammar of this sentence clearly shows that the Father and the Son are indeed separate Persons, at the same time, the use of theos in this verse without the article, is done so for exactly the same reason as in John 1:1. In both cases, the use of theos is speaking of the “being” or “nature” of those referred to, as in John 1:1, “the Word”; and here in 2 John 9, of the Father and the Son. The Greek grammar shows the Father and the Son as Individual Persons, yet their Unity as God is also established.

Similar language can be seen in John 10:30, where Jesus says: “I and the Father are one”. The plurality of Persons is clear from the use of “esmen”, which in the Greek is in the masculine gender, and plural in number. “we are”, not simply, “are”. Which is also seen in the use of “I”, as distinguished from “the Father”, which is with the Greek article, “ho”. However, the use of “one” is in the neuter gender, hen, literally, “one thing”, or, “one being”. So, the text has the meaning, that, We, Who are distinct as Two separate Persons, and yet one with regard to our being, or nature.

The evidence is very clear to the fact, as taught in Scripture, that the Father and the Son, though clearly separate as Persons, are yet equal as Deity. In which case neither could be the “source” of the other’s life or being. Nor could either one exist before the other. All of which is also very true with regard to the Holy Spirit.

From, http://www.trinitystudies.org/Jesus/2john9.pdf

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

HEBREWS 10:15-18

“But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin”

Firstly, we read here of the Holy Spirit as a Personal witness, “the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us”, something not possible if the Holy Spirit were “impersonal”. The Greek word for “witness” is, “marturei”, of its use here we are told, “with a dative of the person: to declare to one by testimony (by suggestion, instruction), Heb 10:15” (J H Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon, p.391). I have already mentioned, that Dr Thayer did not believe that the Holy Spirit was a “Person”. Yet it is clear from what he says, that this “witness” as described in Hebrews 10, was that of a “Person”, as the context and Greek grammar demands this. Interestingly, Thayer did not include the witness of the Holy Spirit as given here, under, “dative of a thing”.

Secondly, the words Spoken here by the Holy Spirit, “meta to eirêkenai”, (again, only possible for a Person) are from the Old Testament Prophet, Jeremiah. In Chapter 31 we read:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (vs.31-34)

The “LORD” here being “YAHWEH”. Paul, in the Epistle to the Hebrews takes this passage Spoken by YAHWEH to “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah”, and applies them as being Spoken by the Holy Spirit. He would not have used what is spoken by YAHWEH, for the Holy Spirit, if He were not a Personal Being. Nor would he have said that these words are of the Holy Spirit, if He were not YAHWEH. It is only that both are true of the Holy Spirit, that Paul has no problem in doing so.

It is very plain to those who are of an honest mind, that the above testimonies from the Word of Almighty God, clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is Personal, and Almighty God, and co-equal, co-eternal, and co-essential with God the Father, and God the Son, which also shows beyond any doubt, that the Holy Bible teaches The Holy Trinity, One God in Three Persons.

From, http://www.trinitystudies.org/HolySpirit/DeityoftheHolySpirit.pdf

 

[TCassidy]

Do you not sing, "Holy, Holy, Holy" occasionally?

Is not the essence of Heaven heard in the three declarations of "Holy?"

Well, yeah, but "Holy, Holy, Holy" (Isaiah 63) is not a reference to the Triune nature of the Godhead (except, possibly, by implication). In Hebrew they don't have declarative, comparative, and superlative adjectives.

In order the form a declarative the writer writes "Holy."

In order to form a comparative (we would say "Holier) the writer would write "Holy, Holy."

In order to form a superlative (we would say "Holiest") the writer would write "Holy, Holy, Holy,"

We see this confirmed in several Old Testament passages.

In Jeremiah 7:4, the Jews are represented by the prophet as saying, "the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, are these." - He is saying "ALL the people."

Also, Jeremiah 22:29, "O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord." ALL of the earth. A superlative.

Ezekiel 21:27, "I will overturn, overturn, overturn." - Overturn to the uttermost. A superlative.

And in 1 Samuel 18:23 "O my son Absalom! my son, my son." - Not just the anguish of a father losing a son, but a father losing his number one son, his son and heir, his most beloved son. A superlative.

 

[TCassidy]

Saved-By-Grace,

Please do not copy and past long articles from other web sites onto the Baptist Board. Especially without attribution.

Post the link. 2 John 9 - God The Father and God The Son

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

ACTS 13 and 16

“As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”

Here we read of certain “prophets and teachers”, of whom were Barnabas and Saul, who were “ministering to the Lord” (toi kurioi), when the Holy Spirit (to pneuma to hagion) says: “separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”. (13:2). Then, in verse 4 we read, “So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit (tou pneumatos tou hagiou)”.

In Acts 16, we read of Paul (Saul) and others, who were “forbidden by the Holy Spirit (tou hagou pneumatos) to preach the word in Asia” (v.6). Paul has a vision of a man from Macedonia, who asked that they went there to preach the Gospel. To which they responded, “that the God had called (proskaleo) us to preach the gospel to them.” (v.10).

There are some deceived people, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others, who teach that the Holy Spirit is no more than an “active force” of God, and not “Personal”. To which Scripture passages as these very clearly respond, when they use PERSONAL actions that are attributed to the Holy Spirit. We read here, “the Holy Spirit SAID”. And then, “for the work that I have CALLED them”. And, “being SENT out by the Holy Spirit”. And, then there are “FORBIDDEN by the Holy Spirit”. Can ANY of these actions be said of something that is IMPERSONAL? The simple answer to ANY person with an honest, teachable mind, has to be, NO.

It should also be noted, that these “prophets and teachers”, are said to have been, ministering “to the Lord (toi kurioi)”, where the Greek verb, “leitourgeo”, is used many times for the “ministry” of the priests and Levites to Yahweh, in the Old Testament. Now, it does not say in this passage in Acts, that “the Lord said”, or “Jesus Christ said”, or “God said”, or “the Father said”. But, it very clearly does say, “eipen to pneuma to hagion (said the Holy Spirit). ONLY if the Holy Spirit is Almighty God, which is no doubt what “toi kurioi” refers to, could He have responded when “ministering” was being done to the “toi kurioi”, and instructed that Barnabas and Saul were sent out for HIS WORK.

Again, in the passage in chapter 16, we read of Paul and the others with him, who were planning to preach the Gospel in Asia (which refers to cities, like Ephesus, Smyrna, and Sardis), and they are “forbidden by the Holy Spirit” (v.6). And, in verse 7, we also read, “they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them”.

But, after the vision that Paul had, they went to Macedonia instead, which they believed was where God had called them to preach. Like the passage in chapter 13, we see here that it was the Holy Spirit who was directing Paul and the others in their missionary journeys. For reasons that are not known to us, the Holy Spirit did not allow them to preach the Gospel, at this time, in these places. They were allowed to go to Macedonia, after the vision of the man from there to Paul, which Paul concluded was God “calling” them there. Here, as in 13:2, we see the use of the Greek verb, “proskaleo”, “to call to onself”. In both cases it is the Holy Spirit Who is the principal subject, and He is clearly called both “Lord” (13:2), and “God” (ho theos), in 16:10. There is no problem or difficulty, as some suppose, where “God” is used either for the Holy Spirit, or Jesus Christ, as if this were only allowed for the Father. In chapter 5 of this Book, we read of the account of Ananias, and his wife, Sapphira, who both lied about the sale of their property. Peter tells Ananias, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (to pneuma to hagion)” (v.3). Note, Peter has told Ananias, that his lie was “to the Holy Spirit”, which would be an impossibility if He were a mere “active force” of God. In the next verse Peter continues about the serious nature of Ananias’ lie. He said, “you have not lied to human beings (anthropois)”, but “toi theoi”, that is, literally, “to the God”, which here is GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. We would have expected Peter to say “you have lied to the Holy Spirit”, which is what he had already told him, which would have also enforced the seriousness of his actions. Instead, Peter charges him of lying TO GOD. Unless there is some hidden agenda of the reader, like a preconceived misconception on the Person of the Holy Spirit, which is common in the cults and religions of this world. There is ONLY ONE way that this passage can be taken, and that is that the Holy Spirit, IS ALMIGHTY GOD, and therefore COEQUAL to the FATHER and the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

From, http://www.trinitystudies.org/HolySpirit/DeityoftheHolySpirit.pdf

 

[HankD]

Why is this a matter of debate?

it is until He returns in all His Glory.

Jude
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

HankD

 

[Aaron]

An implication is no less authoritative. The Resurrection is implied in Exodus 3:6, and Christ reproved the Sadducees for not discerning it.

 

[JonC]

Certainly they demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity, but none of them state the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no post that says, I am a Trinity, Yours sincerely, God. And that is the sort of thing you are demanding concerning Penal Substitution.

I assume you know the provenance, or lack of it, of 1 John 5:7. Do you really think you would convince a Unitarian with that?

[Actually, there is nothing in any of those verses that clearly states, in the Greek, the Personality of the Spirit. You have to go to verses like Acts 5:3-4 and Ephesians 4:30 for that]

I am not talking about stating words (like "trinity" or "bible"). I am not talking about finding each doctrine in one place.

I am talking about the doctrines that comprise the doctrine of a Triune God - stating that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and that God is One.

Can you find verses stating each of those four statements? Is the Father God? Is the Son God? Is the Spirit God? Is God One?

 

[JonC]

An implication is no less authoritative. The Resurrection is implied in Exodus 3:6, and Christ reproved the Sadducees for not discerning it.

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." Exodus 3:6

Which verse are you speaking of where Christ reproved the Sadducees for not discerning Exodus 3:6 implied the Resurrection?

(The problem, of course, is that "implied Scripture" cannot be weighed against Scripture because it isn't there. When passages contradict what is "implied", those who believe in the "implications" consider them equal to the passages they deny and create interpretations to alter what is written).

 

[HankD]

In a recent post @Martin Marprelate challenged me that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in Scripture but that truth is instead implied. My argument is that we do not make doctrine out of implication, but instead seek Scripture itself as our authority (anyone can say something is implied). I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is stated in Scripture and systematically gathered into doctrine.

Here are a few (there are more) verses I believe demonstrates that God is Father, Son, and Spirit:

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9)

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19)

“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

“When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased”. (Luke 3:21-22)

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 2)

But Jon, you just proved it is derived from several scriptures.

The only one which comes close is 1 John 5:7 and you know the story there...

HankD

 

[JonC]

But Jon, you just proved it is derived from several scriptures.

The only one which comes close is 1 John 5:7 and you know the story there...

HankD

It is comprised of several passages. But it is not merely implied.