Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[AustinC]

There is no such thing as unconditional election. It has always been and always will be conditional.
MB

Someone ask MB what the legal requirements are for a person to receive salvation.

I think that sbg, has the legal requirement of:
1) Repentance
2) Exhibit Faith

If those two legal requirements are not met, then no one can merit God's action to save them.

Of course this makes void the teaching that we are saved apart from works, but MB and sbg cannot conceive of how their teaching makes grace null and void.

 

[AustinC]

There is no such thing in the word of God as unconditional election. At best that notion is an interpertation.

What condition did God put on Saul when Saul was on the road to Damascus?
What are the legal conditions required by God before God will save a human and invoke his reconciliation with them?

 

[MB]

You always saying something against scripture.

You're always claiming something is scriptural when it isn't
MB

 

[Brightfame52]

Gods Glory in Election and Reprobation is that He has the right to do with His creatures, men, angels, devils etc whatever He pleases, we are as clay in a potters hand Jer 18:6

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isa 64:8

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:20-21

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And since Election denotes Gods Love for a people according to Deut 7:7

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He therefore has the right to love and choose some, and hate the rest Rom 9:13-16

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[MB]

Someone ask MB what the legal requirements are for a person to receive salvation.

I think that sbg, has the legal requirement of:
1) Repentance
2) Exhibit Faith

If those two legal requirements are not met, then no one can merit God's action to save them.

Of course this makes void the teaching that we are saved apart from works, but MB and sbg cannot conceive of how their teaching makes grace null and void.

Your problem is you need to prove Repentance and Faith are works, One thing for sure You had no vision as did Paul on the road. I'd like to read your explanation of your own experience of receiving Salvation and how it is you know you are saved.
MB

 

[MB]

Gods Glory in Election and Reprobation is that He has the right to do with His creatures, men, angels, devils etc whatever He pleases, we are as clay in a potters hand Jer 18:6

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isa 64:8

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:20-21

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And since Election denotes Gods Love for a people according to Deut 7:7

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He therefore has the right to love and choose some, and hate the rest Rom 9:13-16

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

None of this proves you are personally and unconditionally elected to any thing.
MB

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

People cannot stand to give God the glory in salvation. They have to steal and share some of it with their carnal mind by turning "whoever believes has eternal life" into a condition for the self-righteous to meet instead of leaving it as a characteristic of those whom God saves.

I think a reread of Philippians 2 may be beneficial.

 

[MB]

Gods Glory in Election and Reprobation is that He has the right to do with His creatures, men, angels, devils etc whatever He pleases, we are as clay in a potters hand Jer 18:6

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isa 64:8

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:20-21

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And since Election denotes Gods Love for a people according to Deut 7:7

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He therefore has the right to love and choose some, and hate the rest Rom 9:13-16

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The Bible was written to the Jews. There fore you take what was written to the Jews and apply it to your self. None of what you have posted proves election is unconditional. You need to study your bible. because you don't know what you are writing about
MBl

 

[AustinC]

Your problem is you need to prove Repentance and Faith are works, One thing for sure You had no vision as did Paul on the road. I'd like to read your explanation of your own experience of receiving Salvation and how it is you know you are saved.
MB

If Repentance and Faith are required, then they are an action of the human being. Since they are an action, brought about by human will, they are works done by the human who evokes the action.

MB, you want to have both free will and no works in order to be saved.
In requiring an action (repentance and faith) you, yourself, make salvation a meritorious work of the human, which then obligates God to save that person.

Since you are the one demanding a requirement, you are the one who must show that salvation is by grace alone.

Or, you must declare, like all Roman Catholics, that salvation is by merited works, plus the grace of God.

Are you declaring that the Roman Catholic position on salvation is the correct position?

 

[1689Dave]

I think a reread of Philippians 2 may be beneficial.

God must raise you from the dead human spirit before you can believe. Faith is evidence He did this. If you think your human faith saved you, you are no different than the Catholics, free will and all.

 

[MB]

If Repentance and Faith are required, then they are an action of the human being. Since they are an action, brought about by human will, they are works done by the human who evokes the action.

MB, you want to have both free will and no works in order to be saved.
In requiring an action (repentance and faith) you, yourself, make salvation a meritorious work of the human, which then obligates God to save that person.

Since you are the one demanding a requirement, you are the one who must show that salvation is by grace alone.

Or, you must declare, like all Roman Catholics, that salvation is by merited works, plus the grace of God.

Are you declaring that the Roman Catholic position on salvation is the correct position?

I

If Repentance and Faith are required, then they are an action of the human being. Since they are an action, brought about by human will, they are works done by the human who evokes the action.

MB, you want to have both free will and no works in order to be saved.
In requiring an action (repentance and faith) you, yourself, make salvation a meritorious work of the human, which then obligates God to save that person.

Since you are the one demanding a requirement, you are the one who must show that salvation is by grace alone.

Or, you must declare, like all Roman Catholics, that salvation is by merited works, plus the grace of God.


Are you declaring that the Roman Catholic position on salvation is the correct position?

You seem to be a baby Christian with an ego that is larger than Christ.

I'm not demanding anything It's what scripture says and you deny it.
Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall
come from the presence of the Lord;
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Still want to claim we do not have to repent?
MB

 

[Dave G]

The Bible was written to the Jews.

" Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ( 2 Peter 1:1 ).

" Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:" ( Philippians 1:1 ).

" Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: " ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 ).

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:" ( 2 Corinthians 1:1 ).

" to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Romans 1:7 ).
" For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" ( Romans 11:13 ).

" For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ( Romans 15:4 ).

 

[Dave G]

The Bible was written to the Jews.

" Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:" ( Galatians 1:1-2 ).

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).
" Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;" ( Ephesians 2:11 ).
" Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. " ( Ephesians 2:19 ).
" For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles," ( Ephesians 3:1 ).
" that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: " ( Ephesians 3:6 ).
" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind." ( Ephesians 4:17 ).

 

[Dave G]

The Bible was written to the Jews.

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Colossians 1:1-2 ).

" When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." ( Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ).

"to Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." ( Titus 1:4 ).
" Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" ( Galatians 2:1-3 ).

" Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." ( John 17:20 ).


"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." ( John 20:30 ).


My friend, are you sure about that?

 

[AustinC]

I


You seem to be a baby Christian with an ego that is larger than Christ.

I'm not demanding anything It's what scripture says and you deny it.
Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall
come from the presence of the Lord;
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Still want to claim we do not have to repent?
MB

We have gone over this. Tell me the cause and effect.
1) Human repentance causes God to save.
2) God making a human alive with Christ causes repentance.

Which one?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

While I agree somewhat with the underlined, I'd have to say that I also agree with the fact that He chose them in Christ from the foundation of the world...
To me, that makes them saved at that point, as that is when their names were written ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).

God chose the elect before the foundation of the world. But because I choose to do a thing, that does not mean it is already done. Rather, it means it will be done.

The sinner's warrant ( justification for an action ) is the fact that they are "of God" per John 8:43-47 and they are His elect...even though they have yet to realize it.

Absolutely not! A preacher must not tell sinners to look inside themselves. They will get no help there! The sinner must look to Christ and believe Him when He says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." There is the sinner's warrant! Christ promises to receive him if he will come. Now you and I know that he will not come unless God opens his heart to believe, but the promise is there and it is true, and the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'

That's why I'll side with Gill if that is what he said about a person being saved before they were born, because that is what I see in the Scriptures when I read them for myself.

Well you cannot have read Isaiah 12:1-3 which I have already quoted. God was angry, but His anger is turned away.

I see nowhere that God's people were under His wrath;

Isaiah 12:1-3.

only that they were, by nature, the children of wrath...
That is, before they were born again, they were exactly the same in their minds and in their hearts as those that the Lord never wrote in the Book of Life.

That is correct, but Psalms 7:11-12 says, 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If he does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword........' So if he does turn back, God will not sharpen His sword.

According to John 3:36, the believer evidences that they have eternal life because they believe...
the unbeliever evidences that they are under the wrath of God by their unbelief, and according to John 1:18, the unbeliever is condemned already.

Unbelievers are indeed under the wrath of God, and under His condemnation, but, '"with a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," says the LORD your Redeemer' (Isaiah 54:8. See also Ezekiel 18:21; Hebrews 8:8-12).

IMO, God's wrath was never towards His children, or they would never have believed...

In other words, His wrath towards someone is absolute, and includes their reprobation.

If you look at a good concordance, the Greek and Hebrew words for 'wrath' and 'anger' are very often the same. There is no reason to suppose that there is a special level of wrath which includes reprobation.
'Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.'

 

[Dave G]

Absolutely not! A preacher must not tell sinners to look inside themselves. They will get no help there!

Amen.

The sinner must look to Christ and believe Him when He says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." There is the sinner's warrant! Christ promises to receive him if he will come. Now you and I know that he will not come unless God opens his heart to believe, but the promise is there and it is true, and the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'

I agree, although I also see that the elect's warrant is that they are God's children from the beginning,
and since they are "of God" ( John 8:47 ) and they are Christ's sheep ( John 10:27 ) they will indeed hear...even though they do not know the details of why they did hear and believe, until later.

Their warrant is the Spirit's call, which I think that you may be overlooking.

But because I choose to do a thing, that does not mean it is already done.

But when God does, it is already done.
That's the difference between us and Him.

We fail, and He never does:
" The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" ( Isaiah 14:24 ).

You may start a thread if you like, Steve;
I may participate and I may not.


Nevertheless, my friend, I wish His blessings upon you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Click to expand...
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

Both REPENTING and BELIEVING is what every sinner, has to DO for themselves! God does NOT REPENT and BELIEVE for the sinner! Your theology is FALSE!

 

[SavedByGrace]

God chose the elect before the foundation of the world. But because I choose to do a thing, that does not mean it is already done. Rather, it means it will be done.

so God REPENTS and BELIEVES for the sinner? What complete rubbish!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

so God REPENTS and BELIEVES for the sinner? What complete rubbish!

Now where have I ever suggested such a thing? Nowhere! It is we who must repent and trust God for salvation.
But:
Acts of the Apostles 5:31. 'Him [Christ] God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.'
Acts of the Apostles 11:18. 'when they heard these things they became silent ; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gemtiles repentance unto life."'
Romans 2:6. 'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'
2 Timothy 2:25. '...In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will give them repentance, so that they may come to know the truth.'

Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, but the sinner still has to repent and believe. Do not confuse Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism. However: 'For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, bit of God who shows mercy.'