Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Brightfame52]

Both REPENTING and BELIEVING is what every sinner, has to DO for themselves! God does NOT REPENT and BELIEVE for the sinner! Your theology is FALSE!

This is a rabbit trail !

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is a rabbit trail !

yes to who who cannot stand the Truth of the Bible!

 

[MB]

We have gone over this. Tell me the cause and effect.
1) Human repentance causes God to save.
2) God making a human alive with Christ causes repentance.

Which one?

You are denying scripture.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I can only give you the message of scripture. You can either accept it or perish. Your objection is with God not me. You have to repent. No repentance No Salvation. I know this is too simple for you. Salvation has to be complicated. Luke 13:3 is a direct quote from Jesus. He is commanding all to repent.
MB

 

[SavedByGrace]

Now where have I ever suggested such a thing? Nowhere! It is we who must repent and trust God for salvation.
But:
Acts of the Apostles 5:31. 'Him [Christ] God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.'
Acts of the Apostles 11:18. 'when they heard these things they became silent ; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gemtiles repentance unto life."'
Romans 2:6. 'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'
2 Timothy 2:25. '...In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will give them repentance, so that they may come to know the truth.'

Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, but the sinner still has to repent and believe. Do not confuse Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism. However: 'For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, bit of God who shows mercy.'

calvinists, hyper-calvinsts, both are way off from what the Bible teaches regarding the salvation of sinners. as both deny that Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, including Judas!

 

[MB]

This is a rabbit trail !

Prove we don't have to repent. You say it's a rabbit trail it is not it is Jesus demanding repentance.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
MB

 

[MB]

calvinists, hyper-calvinsts, both are way off from what the Bible teaches regarding the salvation of sinners. as both deny that Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, including Judas!

They are Gnostic. in there doctrines.
MB

 

[MB]

What condition did God put on Saul when Saul was on the road to Damascus?
What are the legal conditions required by God before God will save a human and invoke his reconciliation with them?

Paul repented you can bet your life on it. Pauls saving does not support Calvinism.
MB

 

[Brightfame52]

Election is unconditional because God has chosen His People by Grace before the foundation Eph 1:4, of course this means this means He could not have chosen them or their works. This also means it was not based upon any foreseen, works, decisions, or believing or anything they do or do not do. This is called Gods election of grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[AustinC]

Paul repented you can bet your life on it. Pauls saving does not support Calvinism.
MB

Did Paul repent before God could meet him on the road? Was the cause, Paul repenting, and the effect, God meeting Paul on the Damascus road? If so, can you show us from the text of scripture? Both Acts 9 and Galatians 1 will be your source.

I don't care about Calvin. I do care about scripture.
We both recognize that repentance does happen. Where we are in disagreement is at what time in the order of salvation.

You require repentance before salvation. Thus, for you, repentance causes God to save.
I require God to make a person alive before salvation which causes repentance.
In your model, the center is humans. In my model, the center is God.

 

[MB]

Did Paul repent before God could meet him on the road? Was the cause, Paul repenting, and the effect, God meeting Paul on the Damascus road? If so, can you show us from the text of scripture? Both Acts 9 and Galatians 1 will be your source.

I don't care about Calvin. I do care about scripture.
We both recognize that repentance does happen. Where we are in disagreement is at what time in the order of salvation.

You require repentance before salvation. Thus, for you, repentance causes God to save.
I require God to make a person alive before salvation which causes repentance.
In your model, the center is humans. In my model, the center is God.

Where does scripture say Paul was saved on the road to Damascus. I don't see where Paul was saved on the road. You are reading into the scripture again. Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit on the road either. This below says when he was saved.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

This shows you are not the biblical wizard you'd like to be.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does scripture say Paul was saved on the road to Damascus. I don't see where Paul was saved on the road. You are reading into the scripture again. Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit on the road either. This below says when he was saved.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

This shows you are not the biblical wizard you'd like to be.
MB

Paul received his Commission right there, and he was saved then!

 

[37818]

Where does scripture say Paul was saved on the road to Damascus.

It is interperted Saul was saved on the road to Damascus based on Jesus' instructions to him Acts ,26:14-18 and his testamony having seen Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:8.

 

[MB]

It is interperted Saul was saved on the road to Damascus based on Jesus' instructions to him Acts ,26:14-18 and his testamony having seen Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:8.

Interpertation is the problem then you see the Holy spirit entered Paul three days after the vision he had.We aren't saved with out the Spirit being with in us.
MB

 

[MB]

Did Paul repent before God could meet him on the road? Was the cause, Paul repenting, and the effect, God meeting Paul on the Damascus road? If so, can you show us from the text of scripture? Both Acts 9 and Galatians 1 will be your source.

I don't care about Calvin. I do care about scripture.
We both recognize that repentance does happen. Where we are in disagreement is at what time in the order of salvation.

You require repentance before salvation. Thus, for you, repentance causes God to save.
I require God to make a person alive before salvation which causes repentance.
In your model, the center is humans. In my model, the center is God.

First you prove he was saved during the vision. Scripture only.
MB

 

[37818]

First you prove he was saved during the vision. Scripture only.
MB

No. You explain why not per Acts 13:31 Jesus showed Himself to a yet lost person and tells this yet lost person, Acts 26:17-18, " . . . now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

 

[MB]

No. You explain why not per Acts 13:31 Jesus showed Himself to a yet lost person and tells this yet lost person, Acts 26:17-18, " . . . now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


These scriptures have nothing to say about Paul's Salvation. I assume that you think this happened at the vision sight but it does not say that at all. Why do you assume that this happened right away at the vision?
Act 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
This also does not say what you claim.
MB

 

[37818]

These scriptures have nothing to say about Paul's Salvation. I assume that you think this happened at the vision sight but it does not say that at all. Why do you assume that this happened right away at the vision?

Wow. It is no assumption, but of what Paul said had happened, Acts 26:14-18, ". . . And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Paul's account is given three times in Acts. Each with other details of the one event.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now in considering the bible teaching on unconditional election, we must consider its logical counterpart the doctrine of unconditional reprobation. Thats not to say the reprobate wont be punished justly for their sins in reprobation, however God sovereignly chose to exercise justice on them for their sins, as opposed to having sovereignly chose to exercise mercy towards the elect for their sins.

Now here are some biblical concepts for unconditional reprobation:

. First, God hath refused or rejected some particular persons, on whom he purposed never to have mercy; this is most evident from the Scriptures following. “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 “But the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” Rom11:7. “Therefore hath he mercy, on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Rom 9:18

These are people whom God has purposed not to heal/save Jn 12:39-40

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[MB]

Wow. It is no assumption, but of what Paul said had happened, Acts 26:14-18, ". . . And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Paul's account is given three times in Acts. Each with other details of the one event.

This still does not say Paul was saved during his vision.
MB

 

[37818]

This still does not say Paul was saved during his vision.
MB

Fine, it does not say it, the way it must say it, for you to believe it. Your view makes no sense to me yet.

How, if at all, do you separate what Jesus told Saul in Acts26:14-18? Or what Jesus in verse 17-18 to a yet lost man? That makes no sense. Or how do you understand Jesus telling him not yet save what Jesus is going to have him do? Please explain.