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Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The way you write you would require that God believe/have faith for us, repent for us and perhaps even hear the gospel message for us. So what you seem be saying is that God just want robots that do not think but just do as they are programed. So tell me in what way does that lead to true worship of God?
I use the phrase repent and believe all the time. It is accurate of what it takes to be saved.
I also hold that one cannot separate repentance from belief, for one cannot exist without the other.
Even after salvation on must continue to exercise repentance (confession) and expect to be both tested and cleansed.
I also hold that one cannot separate repentance from belief, for one cannot exist without the other.
Even after salvation on must continue to exercise repentance (confession) and expect to be both tested and cleansed.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
On one hand you say salvation is monergistic but then say it is synergistic as man has to do something, believe.
Question 1 if man does not believe will God save him, NO.
Question 2 can a man save himself, NO.
Question 3 Does God require that a person believe before He will be saved, YES
God is the one who saves but based upon the fulfilled condition of faith, which makes it synergistic.
Rom_10:14
The text is clear
1) Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.
Election is conditional on faith and Paul still insists that it’s gracious (undeserved) and not by works (unmerited). Gal_2:16; Gal_3:2
Good question, though I don’t particularly agree with the suppositions.
God wants servants, submissive to Him, and totally given in heart, mind, soul, and strength in adoration of Him.
That will produce appropriate worship of Him.
Going back to the earlier part of your post, I am assuming that your view is that there is some innate faith good enough in humans to acquire God’s attention, and earn His acceptance. For ultimately even if one accepts some form of prevenient or preceding Grace, the expression of human faith has to get God’s attention and be worthy of acceptance.
I spent decades dealing with people in all walks of life as probably you have, and I can safely say that not a single one does not have failure written in every area of their life, even that which they puff up as faith or hope.
So what does Romans teach concerning How faith (belief) is acquire? By Opened ears hearing the Word.
Here is a parable from the Lord concerning opened ears and the results of the Work of the Word:
18You, therefore, hear the parable of the one having sown:
19Everyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding, the evil one comes and snatches away that having been sown in his heart. This is the one having been sown on the path.
20And the one having been sown upon the rocky places, this is the one hearing the word and immediately receiving it with joy. 21And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22And the one having been sown among the thorns, this is the one hearing the word, but the care of this present age and the deceit of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23But the one having been sown on the good soil, this is the one hearing the word and understanding, who indeed brings forth fruit and produces—indeed, some a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.”
Do you see what must come with the hearing? Understanding.
Paul remarks, “9My companions saw the light, but they could not understand the voice of the One speaking to me.”
Does not the Scripture teach, “The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Therefore, it is strictly God’s work that brings the Word to ears that hear and have spiritual understanding because the Holy Spirit is causing that to be accomplished that God through Christ purposes.
Hope this helps your understanding. Can you see where I have taken the Scriptures as they should be taken?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well, the way I understand it is that there is no cooperation in the sense that God does something and then waits to see what we do independently in response. I believe that anyone who comes to Christ does so because of the action of the Holy Spirit for instance. But belief, though granted by the Holy Spirit, is actually done by the person. So I think you can require something of a believer without denying the fact that if done - God still was the author or originator of it. That is why you can get on the Monergism website and find sermon after sermon of clergymen preaching that you need to believe, live a holy life, repent,etc. and yet still be faithful to the concept of monergism in salvation. And look, even though I think it's a good way to try to explain from a human standpoint how God works in us it still is made up by men and if you review it and decide it is not helpful in your own life as a Christian you should feel no obligation to accept it.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I was taught in a Bible church and later in a Baptist church and I still think it is exactly correct. I would just say that the Calvinistic philosophy or monergistic way of looking at things tries to go back further to the origins of faith and so on. I agree with the OP in that I think election is true and unconditional (unconditional in that there was no merit or qualities that moved God to decide to save someone). But if you watch pro Calvinists on here you will notice that some go so far in a monergistic view that they seem to recoil at the thought that a person does anything and I believe that is a misunderstanding of Calvinistic philosophy.
There is flexible views within most theories, and Calvinist’s may certainly disagree on some areas.
And calvinists do have degrees from high to low. The strictest or high Calvinist is the extreme tolerating little or no evangelism.
The one binding principle is that belief (faith) comes from God by granting understanding as the the Word is delivered by human servants of the Lord.
This presentation of the Scripture expresses the truest consistency to all the Scripture, and places all Glory to the God of heaven.
It does not rely upon superimposed human conjecture such as some form of prevenient or preceding Grace, nor does it rely upon the human capacity of failed! Sin-filled faith.
The belief granted by God through the Word brings understanding from above, sown in the prepared heart, and will result in declarations expressing the core change brought to that person.
Calvinists may develop their own views or nuances to how they resolve other issues, but this single item is the focus of all of them.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Good question, though I don’t particularly agree with the suppositions.
God wants servants, submissive to Him, and totally given in heart, mind, soul, and strength in adoration of Him.
That will produce appropriate worship of Him.
Going back to the earlier part of your post, I am assuming that your view is that there is some innate faith good enough in humans to acquire God’s attention, and earn His acceptance. For ultimately even if one accepts some form of prevenient or preceding Grace, the expression of human faith has to get God’s attention and be worthy of acceptance.
I spent decades dealing with people in all walks of life as probably you have, and I can safely say that not a single one does not have failure written in every area of their life, even that which they puff up as faith or hope.
So what does Romans teach concerning How faith (belief) is acquire? By Opened ears hearing the Word.
Here is a parable from the Lord concerning opened ears and the results of the Work of the Word:
18You, therefore, hear the parable of the one having sown:
19Everyone hearing the word of the kingdom and not understanding, the evil one comes and snatches away that having been sown in his heart. This is the one having been sown on the path.
20And the one having been sown upon the rocky places, this is the one hearing the word and immediately receiving it with joy. 21And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22And the one having been sown among the thorns, this is the one hearing the word, but the care of this present age and the deceit of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23But the one having been sown on the good soil, this is the one hearing the word and understanding, who indeed brings forth fruit and produces—indeed, some a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.”
Do you see what must come with the hearing? Understanding.
Paul remarks, “9My companions saw the light, but they could not understand the voice of the One speaking to me.”
Does not the Scripture teach, “The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Therefore, it is strictly God’s work that brings the Word to ears that hear and have spiritual understanding because the Holy Spirit is causing that to be accomplished that God through Christ purposes.
Hope this helps your understanding. Can you see where I have taken the Scriptures as they should be taken?
So what exactly do you think the work of the Holy Spirit is Joh 16.8-11.
Or even creation as God says we have no excuse Rom 1:20
God has reached out to us an expects us to respond. Do you doubt this? If He expects us to respond then He must have given us the ability to do so. Seems logical to me.
John 10:3 The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you look at what Calvinists have taught it is not hard to see that for them God has to determine all that happens and no one can overrule what He has determined to happen. But at the same time they want those that are condemned to hell to be held responsible for going against God and not believing. I know that they will disagree but how else could they be condemned as God desires all men to come to faith right.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
So we have a situation where man has a true free will and can reject Christ Jesus or God has determined to condemn them to hell just because He can. And according to Calvinism this was all decided before creation.
Why do you continue to assign human attributes to God.
Isaiah stated this from God following the chapter on the suffering messiah, and the next upon the future redemption and restoration of Israel, knowing that the appeal would be made to the lowliest:
8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways My ways,”
declares the LORD.
9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways
and My thoughts than your thoughts.
10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven
and do not return without watering the earth,
making it bud and sprout,
and providing seed to sow and food to eat,
11so My word that proceeds from My mouth
will not return to Me empty,
but it will accomplish what I please,
and it will prosper where I send it.
neither are your ways My ways,”
declares the LORD.
9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways
and My thoughts than your thoughts.
10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven
and do not return without watering the earth,
making it bud and sprout,
and providing seed to sow and food to eat,
11so My word that proceeds from My mouth
will not return to Me empty,
but it will accomplish what I please,
and it will prosper where I send it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So as I said what does the Holy Spirit do?
But are you not neglecting that ALL are already condemned?
And why are all condemned?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So why do you continue to deny what the bible says about the way of salvation. Yes Gods' thoughts and ways are higher than mine but how does that relate to what we were commenting on?
For some strange reason some on here do not think that God would do anything like we humans would. Why do you want to assign weird attributes to God. Look at Christ Jesus if you want to see what God is like, it is all right there in the bible.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So what I see in this is that God saves sinners and then He gives them the faith to believe. Yep you are Calvinist even though you will deny it.
Often, I have seen folks struggle with the severity of God, thinking that He is in some matter unfair.
When it comes to the matter of this thread, it can be a matter of either a true lack of understanding or a certain level of belligerence.
I have already posted the sower and seed parable and referred to it a few times in this thread. The word “hearing” is used and one instance of understanding.
In every case the Word was of not impact to salvation, except when coupled with understanding.
The “natural man receives no understanding” because the Scriptures are considered foolish by that person.
Only the prepared dirt is the seed able to grow to be harvested.
So the people will say, “See God is unfair by not preparing all the dirt.”
Why should he?
He has no obligation to save any.
He is not unfair, but selection is made according to His purpose.
All get to hear, but look what happens, and ask is it really God’s fault Satan steals the Word, or the cares of the world choke it out,…
When it comes to the matter of this thread, it can be a matter of either a true lack of understanding or a certain level of belligerence.
I have already posted the sower and seed parable and referred to it a few times in this thread. The word “hearing” is used and one instance of understanding.
In every case the Word was of not impact to salvation, except when coupled with understanding.
The “natural man receives no understanding” because the Scriptures are considered foolish by that person.
Only the prepared dirt is the seed able to grow to be harvested.
So the people will say, “See God is unfair by not preparing all the dirt.”
Why should he?
He has no obligation to save any.
He is not unfair, but selection is made according to His purpose.
All get to hear, but look what happens, and ask is it really God’s fault Satan steals the Word, or the cares of the world choke it out,…
Sure it is, but you can’t seem to grasp the teaching.
Assuming you believe in some prevenient or preceding Grace thinking that isn’t even found in Scriptures by example or statement, how is it that you want to deny the truths I have pointed to you in Scriptures?
Rather you turn to human reasoning attempting to make one of the attributes of God that He has to play fair.
He sets the rules and establishes the parameters, and He is not to be questioned about fairness. He sees the heart, judges the motives of every creature, and we have a hard enough time just being honest with ourself.
We are but sowers of the seed, sometimes even water bucket carriers, but it is God that gives the increase.
God gives the increase, not some failed, frail human hopeful faith.
Why would God rest the great atonement upon such weakness in a human that has a history of rebellion and pride?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
In all fairness to Calvinism they reject the premise you are starting from. Man in his natural state has a free will - to do what he is most inclined to do. And he is not inclined to choose to accept Jesus Christ. This argument against Calvinism always assumes man is in a neutral state morally and therefore someone who God does not elect has had some injury done to them by God. In the Calvinist view the people who are lost are actually those who God has respected their own nature and free will and has not intervened in their lives.
Also, as a non Calvinist you have the same complaint against God to deal with. Even if a man's will is truly free you simply cannot make a case that God is fair in regards to everyone's opportunity to hear the gospel. Not only do many people never hear a clear presentation of the gospel but many live the type of lives through no fault of their own that would tend to lead a person to sin. Therefore in your system God can still be accused of being unjust.
God could condemn people to hell "just because he can" if that was his nature. Fortunately for us, if our Bibles are accurate that is not his nature. People are condemned to hell because they are unrepentant sinners like I would be and you would be if God had not intervened in our lives.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Calvinists may want to reject the premise but they cannot deny that it where they start from.
So long as you have unconditional election and irresistible grace only for the elect, it does not help to play down limited atonement. You still have limited salvation. It is limited strictly to the elect God unconditionally chooses to save, but no one else.
Read the LBCF chap 3 for starters. Calvinists say that God determines all things, not just some things. So for them to say that man, in there system, has a free will is plainly false. You posit that God has respected fallen mans nature but since in Calvinism God has determined that nature how is that not intervening in their lives?
Actually it is God that says you are wrong on that point.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Do you really think that God who desires that all be saved would not allow for the means for that to happen?
I agree God did intervene in our lives, via creation, other Christians, The Holy Spirit convicting us. But do you not see it is still us that have to move toward God. We have to trust, we have to believe. God does not do those things for us. Christ Jesus said it best:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." Not drag but draw.
God does not save the unwilling. Calvinism would like you to think that those condemned are condemned by their own hand but since they were rejected before creation the will not fly.
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