You missed my point. And I did not say anyone believed that please read it again.
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Doctrines of Calvinism denying the offer of salvation to the world
- Thread starter JonC
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You missed my point. And I did not say anyone believed that please read it again.
If I misunderstand, it is because you are not clear. Others have noted that you squirm like a jellyfish with no spine. I note the same interplay when in dialogue with you.
If you are so confused that you cannot articulate your beliefs in a clear and concise manner, then do not blame others for your failure to explain your thoughts.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
A few things about "Predestination"
In the Bible, using pronouns like "we" "us" and "them", the word "predestination" always refers to a group.
What the Bible says we are "predestined" to is to be "adopted children" conformed to the image of Christ.
The Bible never says "predestined" to salvation. Not once.
A few things about "Election"
This word refers to a group as well, with the exception of someone called "the elect lady"(2 John 1:1) and Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus Christ is also referred to as "elect" as are the "elect angels" and the Israelites.
"Election" has to do with our purpose, or "service". Neither "predestination" nor "election" are referring to salvation: they refer to our ultimate sanctification and our service respectively.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
That's right: every man, was doomed to judgement because of sin, but every man is offered the "free gift" of eternal life by Jesus Christ. If you reject it and go to Hell, it's your own fault. God is a just, so there will be no excuses because He did His part and it is your choice to make. It's just that simple.
In the Bible, using pronouns like "we" "us" and "them", the word "predestination" always refers to a group.
What the Bible says we are "predestined" to is to be "adopted children" conformed to the image of Christ.
The Bible never says "predestined" to salvation. Not once.
A few things about "Election"
This word refers to a group as well, with the exception of someone called "the elect lady"(2 John 1:1) and Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus Christ is also referred to as "elect" as are the "elect angels" and the Israelites.
"Election" has to do with our purpose, or "service". Neither "predestination" nor "election" are referring to salvation: they refer to our ultimate sanctification and our service respectively.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
That's right: every man, was doomed to judgement because of sin, but every man is offered the "free gift" of eternal life by Jesus Christ. If you reject it and go to Hell, it's your own fault. God is a just, so there will be no excuses because He did His part and it is your choice to make. It's just that simple.
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Everything you posted here is error. The good thing is you are consistently wrong.
The cure is to pray for understanding of a these verses that you have backwards and twisted.
I don't believe what you say, as I believe I am quite clear. Who are the others say that I am a jellyfish with no spine? Or is that your assessment? You really have to learn to be more Christian-like and not cruel so that doubters can won to the faith instead of being chased away (and I can see why). I'm not sure why I am such a threat to you unless I hit a nerve of some sort? I have nothing against you, and I have respectfully and in a Christ-like manner answered all my posts without attacking anyone so why the attacks to someone who has been humble? Please do the same and make the Lord proud, not only to me, but to others.
שלום
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Even the Bible verse? hmmm
Folks..... this debate is because there is truth to each side of the story. We would not be debating this unless there was evidence to each point of view. But please allude to the blind men and elephant I mentioned. Even worldly people have insight to the way things work. Then.... see if there is not a bigger picture that fulfills these so-called "contradictions". Blessings to all.
שלום
שלום
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Absolutely. Worldly people, even the unsaved, can discern right from wrong as well.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The Bible verse is fine you just don't get it at all all means one thing in the 1 verse and all means something else in the second part of the verse and you don't have a clue as to why they are distinct
No threat.
Also, God will draw his elect into the Kingdom, regardless of their personal offense to what I say. Your attempt at guilting me is worthless so don't bother.
You are not clear, despite your belief that you are. I suggest you clearly state your faith without assuming we understand your crooked universalism. Clarify for us if you believe the dead can be redeemed.
Can the dead choose to accept Christ?
Can the living choose to accept Christ by seeking Christ?
We are debating this because there is a human desire to control our destiny and use God to our own means. Free-will proponents demand to be in charge of their salvation. Election proponents demand God be in charge of man's salvation.
Your relativism is false and corrupted.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Enlighten me.
Pray that God enlightens you. It is doubtful anyone who holds to the Sovereignty of God will persuade you. You need a Pauline conversion.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
"Pauline conversion"?
I see, you have no explanation for the two "alls" in Romans 5:18. The same Greek words for "all men" were used in both parts of the verse, sir. They mean the same: God is not the author of confusion. I'm afraid the only god who could enlighten me otherwise would be the god of this world and that is not possible because I have had a "Holy Spirit conversion". Sinner friends, no matter who you are, Jesus died for you too.
I see, you have no explanation for the two "alls" in Romans 5:18. The same Greek words for "all men" were used in both parts of the verse, sir. They mean the same: God is not the author of confusion. I'm afraid the only god who could enlighten me otherwise would be the god of this world and that is not possible because I have had a "Holy Spirit conversion". Sinner friends, no matter who you are, Jesus died for you too.
OK, I thought I made myself clear. There will be those saved during the millennium after the "church age" depicted by feast of Tabernacles).
There will be even a greater mass saved at the great white throne judgment(depicted by the Last Great Day). This is NOT a second chance, but those who died before the time of Christ, or those who have died after Christ's coming who never heard the true gospel. Those who hear the message now have a responsibility to respond NOW, so I'm not addressing them. Bottom line--- everyone will be given opportunity to hear the gospel, even those babies who died before "the age of accountability". I can give the scriptures if you so desire. God imparts salvation when he desires, whether in this life or that of the resurrection. This is not universalism, as there will always be those who will not follow God and be destroyed in the lake of fire, and thus cease to exist. But it does include more people than what is commonly taught. God would have to be very evil if He called and saved only a few and then left the rest burn in eternity and forever and ever; amen and amen.
Thus you preach universalism. Yet, in earlier comments you deny universalism. You are confused.
"I really believe that a holy God is under no obligation to pardon filthy sinners from their just condemnation under God's law."
But you believe God is under obligation to sin and not pardon people at all.
Just like how you are "surprised" and "shocked" GOD was only HALF as evil as you expect him to be.
When a Calvinist accuses another of universalism = the Calvinist lost the debate.
Calvinist Logic is totally depraved of the capacity to understand how God wants one thing and gets another.
You don't sin anymore do you Menno?
Because GOD does not want, and wishes that you do not sin any more.
Here is a hint God does not want you to sin EVER AGAIN, its called a sin.
Does God want you to sin Menno?
Does God want ANYONE TO SIN?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
No sir, it's sad but you seem to be the one who is confused. There is no conflict between the two statements I made. You need to understand that Jesus "tasted death for every man" and the "free gift" was offered for every man, but it is up to each and every man to accept that free gift by trusting Jesus Christ to save him from his sin and from Hell. Universalism is the belief that God is just going to save everybody regardless, but on the contrary, I said some are going to go to Hell if they don't choose to trust Jesus as savior.. . You either do not understand what you read or you are purposely trying falsely accuse.
Utilyan, you have outright and openly lied.
I state that God is under no obligation to anyone. God us Sovereign and he chooses as he so wills.
God pardons whom he wills as a display of his grace. He makes that decision entirely independent of our opinion.
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