Does a Multitude of Modern English Bible Versions Promote a Violation of 1 Cor 1:10

[John of Japan]

! Corinthians 10 says this and the context should be considered:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

You say the context should be considered. Okay, I will do so.
1. The letter is written to a specific local church.
2. The next three verses make the context clear: " 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
3. So the verse referenced, verse 10, is about a specific conflict which is centered around personalities, namely Paul, Peter, and Apollos, not to mention Jesus Himself.
4. Can the passage be applied to the modern Bible version dispute, No, because the passage is (a) to a local church about a local church problem, not Christianity in general. (b) The passage itself is about splits on the basis of personalities (Billy Graham, etc.), not translations.

 

[JD731]

the problem isn't that the translations cause division. That is like saying the fork made someone fat. The division is a result of what is in people's hearts. You are blaming the wrong thing.

I agree, Rev. The problem was that the carnal Christians at Corinth did not recognize the authority line and the preeminence of Jesus Christ and the voice of his words, their apostle Paul, and this made them pick and choose those who they would follow, thus creating a major division that could lead nowhere but to chaos. We must submit to the rule of God from the heart. So, good post, except the last sentence.

 

[JonC]

The apostles and eye witnesses of the events of which they wrote, the authors of the New Testament, remains to this day the authority of the church. Since the church now has a gentile character, the 13 letters of Paul instructs the church of Jesus Christ, he being distinctly the apostle to the gentiles. For over 18 hundred years there was not a national entity called the nation of Israel or the nation of Judah.. Since 70 AD and the dispersion of the Jews by the Romans those of Jacob have been considered gentiles by God. This is pictured in type by gentile women who were married to Jewish men, like Rebeka, Rahab, Ruth, and five more.

However, during the apostolic era of the church, there was a Jewish church and Paul in Romans says this about them;

Ro 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Ro 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

This passage should convince you that Paul's gentile apostleship was not to individual churches but to gentiles. Now saved men are not Jews or gentiles but the singular church of Jesus Christ.

Now, your post does not accomplish what you intend.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but this does not mean His audience was to Gentiles as a whole instead of specific congregations. Also, it does not m an Paul's instructions are not also for Jewish Christian congregations.

Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles refers to evangelism. Paul was chosen to reach out with the gospel than had previously been accomplished.

Also, Paul emphasizes that there is no Gentiles and Jew" among Christians. We are one race of people.

Your reasoning also means Gentiles should choose an idea overseer to oversee all Gentiles congregations.....a "pope". It means that church discipline is not a matter for a local church.

1 and 2 Corinthians applies to ALL churches, not just Gentiles churches. But it applies to autonomous local churches.

I told you before that I am Baptist. I believe in the autonomy of the local church. I believe this will s taught in the Bible so we will never agree.

 

[Deacon]

Think about it. God directs all Christians to speak the same thing…

I don’t believe the passage means what you think it means.
It does not mean we all must think, talk and walk the same.

Christians are gifted differently and each of us complements the body of Christ.

A variety of versions aids believers of different backgrounds to understand God’s word.

Rob

 

[Van]

Yet another effort to claim prior views are superior to subsequent views, the hallmark of provincialism.

Let us consider the New Testament. We have several versions, such as the TR, the MT and the CT. And of course a myriad of translations which are eclectic, going with this variant here, and that variant there.

We are to study God's word, and do our best to understand it, apply it to our lives, and present it to those in need. Jesus found the prevailing understanding of God's word to be well wide of the mark, so for anyone to say we should compel everyone to adhere to one view, right or wrong, rather than what seems best after careful study is nonsense.

 

[JD731]

You say the context should be considered. Okay, I will do so.
1. The letter is written to a specific local church.
2. The next three verses make the context clear: " 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
3. So the verse referenced, verse 10, is about a specific conflict which is centered around personalities, namely Paul, Peter, and Apollos, not to mention Jesus Himself.
4. Can the passage be applied to the modern Bible version dispute, No, because the passage is (a) to a local church about a local church problem, not Christianity in general. (b) The passage itself is about splits on the basis of personalities (Billy Graham, etc.), not translations.

Okay, thank you for your logic and your reasoning.

 

[Logos1560]

Men are not inspired.

The pre-1611 word of God in English disagreed with your opinion. Tyndale's, Matthew's, Great, Whittingham's, and Bishops' Bibles rendered Mark 12:36 as follows: "for David himself inspired with the Holy Ghost." To refer to the inspiring of men or to "inspired men" is consistent with early English Bible terminology from the very good Bibles in the line of good Bibles promoted by KJV-only advocates.

Is this understanding or interpretation of the early English Bible translators an accurate description of the process of God in giving His Word to men? At John 20:19, the Geneva Bible and an edition of the KJV printed in 1672 have the following marginal note: “Christ in that he presented himself before his disciples suddenly through his divine power, when the gates were shut, doth fully assure them both of his resurrection, and also of their Apostleship, inspiring them with the holy Ghost, who is the director of the ministry of the Gospel.” The Geneva Bible and a KJV edition printed in 1672 have the following note at 1 Corinthians 14:32: “The doctrine which the prophets bring, which are inspired with God’s Spirit.” At 1 Corinthians 14:2, the same two Bibles have a note that begins as follows: “By that inspiration which he has received of the Spirit.”

The word inspiration came into the English Bible from the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate as found in Coverdale’s 1538 Latin-English New Testament began 2 Timothy 3:16 as follows: “Omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata,“ and the Latin Vulgate also has “inspirati” in its rendering at 2 Peter 1:21.

John Wycliffe is cited and translated as writing that “the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit” (Levy, John Wyclif, p. 211). Stephen Westcott’s modern-spelling edition of the 1388 Wycliffe New Testament has the following rendering of 2 Peter 1:21: “for prophecy was not brought at any time by man’s will, but the holy men of God, inspired with the Holy Ghost, spoke it.“ Miles Coverdale’s rendering of the Latin Vulgate in his 1538 English New Testament at 2 Peter 1:21 is the following: “For the prophecy was never brought by the will of man, but the holy men of God spake as they were inspired by the holy Ghost.”

In the preface of the 1568 Bishops’ Bible, Matthew Parker maintained that the apostle Paul was “inspired from God above” and that “he did inspire Moses” (Richmond, Fathers, VIII, pp. 146, 151). Lancelot Andrewes, KJV translator, used this early Bible terminology when he preached that Christ "inspireth them [the apostles] with the Holy Ghost" (Ninety-Six Sermons, Library, V, p. 83). Andrewes stated that “the Prophet did nothing but as inspired by the Holy Ghost” (Ninety-Six, III, p. 317). Concerning 2 Peter 1:19, Lancelot Andrewes commented: “The apostle teacheth us that we have the Law from God immediately, and all other scripture by the ministry of men, but yet as they spake nothing but that which the Spirit of God commanded them and inspired into them, and therefore that which they delivered we must hold for a most sure and infallible truth” (Pattern of Catechistical Doctrine, p. 46). KJV translator John Overall wrote: “For we hold it resolutely, that whatsoever the Apostles did either write, teach, or command, they wrote, taught, and commanded it as they were inspired and directed by the Holy Ghost” (Convocation Book, p. 120). Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the KJV, wrote: “The prophets were inspired from above” (Perpetual Government, p. 136).

 

[Logos1560]

Your reasoning is an error.

Your modern KJV-only reasoning is erroneous.

 

[Logos1560]

I see all these new modern English translations, paraphrases, and dynamic equivalences as a serious problem that has weakened the churches and divided Christians.

You do not see clearly and objectively because of your subjective KJV-only bias.

Unsound and false KJV-only teaching has divided Christians and churches.

 

[JD731]

I don’t believe the passage means what you think it means.
It does not mean we all must think, talk and walk the same.

Christians are gifted differently and each of us complements the body of Christ.

A variety of versions aids believers of different backgrounds to understand God’s word.

Rob

The problem was not solved by letter #1. It took another letter and a reprimand from the great apostle not long after. Why? Because they were following false apostles who challenged Paul's credentials from God.

I will give some verses without context.


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

2 Corinthians 11:5
For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

2 Corinthians 10:10
For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

Who are the they? The false apostles who have their ear.


2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works




2 Cor 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.

2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The same warfare is going on today with modern versions and the authority of the apostle Paul is still being challenged. His counsel to us is the same as it was to the Corinthians.

2 Cor 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The problems never change they are just presented differently. The same counsel is to us as was to the Corinthians and by the same man.

 

[JD731]

Now, your post does not accomplish what you intend.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but this does not mean His audience was to Gentiles as a whole instead of specific congregations. Also, it does not m an Paul's instructions are not also for Jewish Christian congregations.

Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles refers to evangelism. Paul was chosen to reach out with the gospel than had previously been accomplished.

Also, Paul emphasizes that there is no Gentiles and Jew" among Christians. We are one race of people.

Your reasoning also means Gentiles should choose an idea overseer to oversee all Gentiles congregations.....a "pope". It means that church discipline is not a matter for a local church.

1 and 2 Corinthians applies to ALL churches, not just Gentiles churches. But it applies to autonomous local churches.

I told you before that I am Baptist. I believe in the autonomy of the local church. I believe this will s taught in the Bible so we will never agree.

The doctrines governing this age, called by God "the dispensation of the grace of God," was given to the apostle Paul by revelation. It was by revelation because it could not be known any other way. It was and is yet a "mystery" and called "the mystery of Christ. The nutshell definition of this age is in Eph 3:6. Jews and gentiles both were in the body of Christ that he is forming in this age after the figure of the creation of Adam and Eve and their marriage relationship. The bride taken out of the body of the sleeping man and a woman formed by that which was inside of him. This is the beginning of the church and the Jews eventually lost their identity and was cut off from their covenants and was reckoned by God as gentiles. Thusly, the church is a gentile church, body and bride that will one day soon be complete and glorified and presented to Christ by God the Father.

Paul was faithful to his calling to all lost souls.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Paul could not teach these deep things to the Corinthian church because of their carnality and immaturity. Read chapter 3 here.

Anyone who understands the mysteries of the faith will and must have the revelation of God. They are foolishness to the natural mind.

 

[JD731]

The pre-1611 word of God in English disagreed with your opinion. Tyndale's, Matthew's, Great, Whittingham's, and Bishops' Bibles rendered Mark 12:36 as follows: "for David himself inspired with the Holy Ghost." To refer to the inspiring of men or to "inspired men" is consistent with early English Bible terminology from the very good Bibles in the line of good Bibles promoted by KJV-only advocates.

Is this understanding or interpretation of the early English Bible translators an accurate description of the process of God in giving His Word to men? At John 20:19, the Geneva Bible and an edition of the KJV printed in 1672 have the following marginal note: “Christ in that he presented himself before his disciples suddenly through his divine power, when the gates were shut, doth fully assure them both of his resurrection, and also of their Apostleship, inspiring them with the holy Ghost, who is the director of the ministry of the Gospel.” The Geneva Bible and a KJV edition printed in 1672 have the following note at 1 Corinthians 14:32: “The doctrine which the prophets bring, which are inspired with God’s Spirit.” At 1 Corinthians 14:2, the same two Bibles have a note that begins as follows: “By that inspiration which he has received of the Spirit.”

The word inspiration came into the English Bible from the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate as found in Coverdale’s 1538 Latin-English New Testament began 2 Timothy 3:16 as follows: “Omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata,“ and the Latin Vulgate also has “inspirati” in its rendering at 2 Peter 1:21.

John Wycliffe is cited and translated as writing that “the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit” (Levy, John Wyclif, p. 211). Stephen Westcott’s modern-spelling edition of the 1388 Wycliffe New Testament has the following rendering of 2 Peter 1:21: “for prophecy was not brought at any time by man’s will, but the holy men of God, inspired with the Holy Ghost, spoke it.“ Miles Coverdale’s rendering of the Latin Vulgate in his 1538 English New Testament at 2 Peter 1:21 is the following: “For the prophecy was never brought by the will of man, but the holy men of God spake as they were inspired by the holy Ghost.”

In the preface of the 1568 Bishops’ Bible, Matthew Parker maintained that the apostle Paul was “inspired from God above” and that “he did inspire Moses” (Richmond, Fathers, VIII, pp. 146, 151). Lancelot Andrewes, KJV translator, used this early Bible terminology when he preached that Christ "inspireth them [the apostles] with the Holy Ghost" (Ninety-Six Sermons, Library, V, p. 83). Andrewes stated that “the Prophet did nothing but as inspired by the Holy Ghost” (Ninety-Six, III, p. 317). Concerning 2 Peter 1:19, Lancelot Andrewes commented: “The apostle teacheth us that we have the Law from God immediately, and all other scripture by the ministry of men, but yet as they spake nothing but that which the Spirit of God commanded them and inspired into them, and therefore that which they delivered we must hold for a most sure and infallible truth” (Pattern of Catechistical Doctrine, p. 46). KJV translator John Overall wrote: “For we hold it resolutely, that whatsoever the Apostles did either write, teach, or command, they wrote, taught, and commanded it as they were inspired and directed by the Holy Ghost” (Convocation Book, p. 120). Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the KJV, wrote: “The prophets were inspired from above” (Perpetual Government, p. 136).

Okay, so you did not get my point in my last comments to you.

 

[Mikoo]

Men are not inspired. Your reasoning is an error.
...

I agree. That includes the KJV translators.

 

[JD731]

Particularly the KJV translators.

 

[JD731]

In the preface of the 1568 Bishops’ Bible, Matthew Parker maintained that the apostle Paul was “inspired from God above” and that “he did inspire Moses” (Richmond, Fathers, VIII, pp. 146, 151). Lancelot Andrewes, KJV translator, used this early Bible terminology when he preached that Christ "inspireth them [the apostles] with the Holy Ghost" (Ninety-Six Sermons, Library, V, p. 83). Andrewes stated that “the Prophet did nothing but as inspired by the Holy Ghost” (Ninety-Six, III, p. 317). Concerning 2 Peter 1:19, Lancelot Andrewes commented: “The apostle teacheth us that we have the Law from God immediately, and all other scripture by the ministry of men, but yet as they spake nothing but that which the Spirit of God commanded them and inspired into them, and therefore that which they delivered we must hold for a most sure and infallible truth” (Pattern of Catechistical Doctrine, p. 46). KJV translator John Overall wrote: “For we hold it resolutely, that whatsoever the Apostles did either write, teach, or command, they wrote, taught, and commanded it as they were inspired and directed by the Holy Ghost” (Convocation Book, p. 120). Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the KJV, wrote: “The prophets were inspired from above” (Perpetual Government, p. 136).

Here is what the scriptures state.

2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Read this and meditate on what it says. Scripture is written words. It does not come from inspired men and this is not the claim. The inspiration of the written words comes from God through chosen men. If this is true, and it is, then God does not need a hundred translations in 120 years all with different words to make his person and ways known. If he did he would have done it in the first century and would not have waited until the 20th century to do it.

This is consistent with what Jesus our Lord said in John 12 and other places about how the words come from God, even the ones he speaks.

Why does this passage not settle the matter once and for all?

 

[JonC]

The doctrines governing this age, called by God "the dispensation of the grace of God," was given to the apostle Paul by revelation. It was by revelation because it could not be known any other way. It was and is yet a "mystery" and called "the mystery of Christ. The nutshell definition of this age is in Eph 3:6. Jews and gentiles both were in the body of Christ that he is forming in this age after the figure of the creation of Adam and Eve and their marriage relationship. The bride taken out of the body of the sleeping man and a woman formed by that which was inside of him. This is the beginning of the church and the Jews eventually lost their identity and was cut off from their covenants and was reckoned by God as gentiles. Thusly, the church is a gentile church, body and bride that will one day soon be complete and glorified and presented to Christ by God the Father.

Paul was faithful to his calling to all lost souls.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Paul could not teach these deep things to the Corinthian church because of their carnality and immaturity. Read chapter 3 here.

Anyone who understands the mysteries of the faith will and must have the revelation of God. They are foolishness to the natural mind.

I do not think you understood my point (my fault, I probably did not state it well).

Paul wrote to a specific church. But his writing is Scripture and it applies to every church.

BUT it does not apply to some governing organization existing over churches.

If having multiple translations is a source of division in your church then it needs to be examined - either educate your congregation about the nature of translations or choose one to use in the service.

If having multiple translations does not cause divisions in your church (it does not in mine) then there is no division to address.

 

[robycop3]

Obviously more new Bible translations will have the effect of division rather than unity among people and churches. It is logical and reasonable to believe this is true. No one on these forums that I have seen has ever begun a thread to show evidence that Christians are more united in doctrine since the deluge of new English Bible translations began in America in 1901 with the ASV. There should be some evidence because the reason many give for them is to make the scriptures more understandable because they are presented in modern language and the translators are much more skilled and better equipped.

Then there is 1 Corinthians 1:10. The command from God is to be unified by speaking the same thing. The implication is that we cannot be unified but divided if we do not. I see all these new modern English translations, paraphrases, and dynamic equivalences as a serious problem that has weakened the churches and divided Christians. People do not know what the word of God is any more and they do not believe they have the words of God because that is what they are told. They have the best ideas of the translators and one might be closer to the truth than the other. I do not think that is what God is looking for in those who worship him. Do you?

There's no proof that any one English translation is the best one.

 

[Logos1560]

Okay, so you did not get my point in my last comments to you.

You do not get my sound points. You ignore or dismiss sound documented evidence.

 

[Deacon]

hmmnn, Rob, are we reading the same 1 Cor 1? If you agree that scripture is our authority for faith and practice, what would be your strongest biblical passage for the modern practice of never ending variations of translations and paraphrases? I would like to read it and see what I have missed.

One only has to read the numerous passages of OT Scripture that have been quoted in the NT to see the varied ways the authors translated from one language to another.

A person has to turn a blind eye when reading the Bible if they don’t see that OT quotes don’t always match up exactly in the NT.

These differences are not the “same” noted in 1 Corinthians.

Rob

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree, Rev. The problem was that the carnal Christians at Corinth did not recognize the authority line and the preeminence of Jesus Christ and the voice of his words, their apostle Paul, and this made them pick and choose those who they would follow, thus creating a major division that could lead nowhere but to chaos. We must submit to the rule of God from the heart. So, good post, except the last sentence.

How is the last sentence wrong?