Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[JamesL]

Maybe this was posted earlier but I would like to ask.

"What about the man or woman who testifies that they have never had a memorable experience.....what if they, as far back as they can remember have always claimed that Christ is Lord & have always tried to live in obedience?"

I don't believe it's absolutely necessary to have a remembrance of our experience, or even to be aware that it actually happened.

First, I don't believe in the fictitious notion that we are born sinners. We are born "in Adam" physically, though. Flesh. Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 deals with our physical death because of Adam.
We all go astray - If we're born astray, how can we go astray?
Romans 1 says we become fools. How is that, if we are born fools?

Scripture also says that we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. How can a baby do that? H can't. Yet, people cling to the notion of a back door into grace for babies, without any scriptures saying so. Fact is, they haven't died spiritually yet. They will, for scripture says it is an absolute certainty for every man to become a sinner (Christ the only exception)

So when does someone die spiritually, and then need to be born again? No definite age given, but my conviction is that it is somewhere around that time when we become our own guy. When nobody's going to dictate our life anymore, we go our own way. I'm guessing somewhere maybe 15-20 years old. It might be simply viewed as "coming of age".

I would have no arguments against some earlier age, though, as it is just not stated in scripture.

So then, what about the one who says he has always believed in Jesus, from 3 years old, and never remembers any such "born again" experience?

Jesus said that he who is forgiven much loves much (Luke 7:47). I draw from this that a person's born again experience is possibly relative to how far into rebellion he went when he went his own way.

Look how far Paul went into his own way of killing Christians, and look how dramatic his new birth experience was. Not everyone's is to that degree

Some have been raised knowing about Jesus, and have been trained from birth about Him. My son is an example of that. He's 7 years old, and believes that Jesus died to take the punishment for his sins. Has never had any "experience" that I know if, and definitely hasn't asked Jesus to come into his heart. I refuse to teach him that superstition

Will he go his own way at some point? Yes, and I dread the day. But, hopefully I have instilled into him enough about Christ by then, that when he does go his own way, and experiences spiritual death, It won't take long for him to be brought back, and pick up his faith where he veered into the ditch.

He may never be able to pinpoint the day of a born again experience. I firmly believe it's possible to die spiritually, and have the new birth in the same day or hour. Because being born again comes through faith in Christ.

If he has been trained to believe in Christ before he dies spiritually, then goes his own way one day, and then continues to believe in Christ, he might not ever even know the day he went his own way and was born again

He would have had a born again experience, and not know it. He will be different than before, being now indwelt by the Spirit of God, with a heavenly outlook with God as his Father.

If someone believes we are born a sinner, he is confused anyway, so that's going to make it real difficult to even know when he died spiritually.

I know of one man who I would put in a similar category, being raised Episcopalian. He had been brought up in the church, and continued into adulthood. He remembers that a time in his life, his spiritual identity just seemed to take a different meaning. He had no idea why, just the it seemed to click

He couldn't explain it, and neither could his parents. All they knew was that somehow, he was different from before. And they couldn't figure out why. His faith was now somehow alive. And the mother was particularly interested in having what he had.

This was a customer if mine about 12 years ago, when I was rewiring their house. I had some pretty good talks with them about the born again experience while I was there. The rewiring of that house became a secondary reason for being there, and they were ok with that.

I'm sure others will object, at least in part

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't believe it's absolutely necessary to have a remembrance of our experience, or even to be aware that it actually happened.

First, I don't believe in the fictitious notion that we are born sinners. We are born "in Adam" physically, though. Flesh. Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 deals with our physical death because of Adam.

OH OH....LET ME STOP YOU HERE JAMES.Since Ive never ever stated my beliefs to you, I want you to understand clearly my belief system so we dont get off on the wrong footing. So here goes. I believe in election by grace I believe in the doctrine of original sin and man’s inability to rescue himself from his fallen state by his own freewill ability. I believe that sinners are called converted, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit and all are so regenerated and born again by the spirit of God shall never fall away. I believe sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

So when does someone die spiritually, and then need to be born again? No definite age given, but my conviction is that it is somewhere around that time when we become our own guy. When nobody's going to dictate our life anymore, we go our own way. I'm guessing somewhere maybe 15-20 years old. It might be simply viewed as "coming of age".

I was 54.

This was a customer if mine about 12 years ago, when I was rewiring their house. I had some pretty good talks with them about the born again experience while I was there. The rewiring of that house became a secondary reason for being there, and they were ok with that.

Are you an electrician? Or was this low voltage wire?

I'm sure others will object, at least in part

Oh I could pretty much guarantee it on BB. Also you can make enemies quite easily & not even know it till your attacked and mauled. I can guarantee that as well.....so be on your guard & on your toes at all times :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Title of the thread: Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

Answer: Yes. Otherwise they are not born again; not regenerated; not saved.

 

[JamesL]

OH OH....LET ME STOP YOU HERE JAMES.Since Ive never ever stated my beliefs to you, I want you to understand clearly my belief system so we dont get off on the wrong footing. So here goes. I believe in election by grace I believe in the doctrine of original sin and man’s inability to rescue himself from his fallen state by his own freewill ability. I believe that sinners are called converted, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit and all are so regenerated and born again by the spirit of God shall never fall away. I believe sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

We'll have to argue some of that one of these days

The only reason I went there was in order to establish a basis for why I don't believe it's always possible to pinpoint an experience

I was 54.

For me, it was within a week of my 28th birthday. Not real sure if m birthday had passed or not.
Sometimes, I say I was 27, sometimes I say I was 28. I honestly don't know because it was so close to my birthday.

Are you an electrician? Or was this low voltage wire?

Yeah, electrician from 1992 to 2001.
Then I ventured into whole house remodeling - tile work, drywall, hardwood flooring, etc til 2005
Back into electrical work for a couple years. Since 2007, I have done both.

I'm self employed, part time. Not that I'm semi-retired, it's just that I believe this is where God has called me to be. I work full time somewhere - paying jobs, church, my son's school, etc

I just work. If God sees fit that there is money attached, then so be it. If not, then it'll be for someone who can't afford to pay, or for our church, etc. and He always makes sure we're not eating dirt

Oh I could pretty much guarantee it on BB. Also you can make enemies quite easily & not even know it till your attacked and mauled. I can guarantee that as well.....so be on your guard & on your toes at all times :thumbs:

I've already seen that. I hate that. I love a spirited debate, but I hate grudges

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We'll have to argue some of that one of these days

Sorry, non negotiable. I'm committed to Doctrines of Grace & Old School Baptists beliefs. This is where the Lord has taken me. If you wish to be a friend, you will respect my beliefs & not become antagonistic towards them. Ive discovered that mutual, open and above board respect for the other persons beliefs brings a good basis for a friendly long term relationship.

The only reason I went there was in order to establish a basis for why I don't believe it's always possible to pinpoint an experience

James, thats fine.

Yeah, electrician from 1992 to 2001.
Then I ventured into whole house remodeling - tile work, drywall, hardwood flooring, etc til 2005
Back into electrical work for a couple years. Since 2007, I have done both.

I'm self employed, part time. Not that I'm semi-retired, it's just that I believe this is where God has called me to be. I work full time somewhere - paying jobs, church, my son's school, etc

I worked for LEVITON as a field sales engineer for many years.

I've already seen that. I hate that. I love a spirited debate, but I hate grudges

Unfortunately its a fact of life for many, especially when contending for the high ground of who's soterology is superior. Generally there are 2 camps: Calvinist Vs Non Calvinist & Arminian. Since I gravitate to the Calvinists with Doctrines of Grace, I know only too well what the blood baths can be like ....I was a participant. You will get to see it soon enough. Shakes head in disgust.

And God Forbid you be controversial, thats when the daggers come out..... but hey, aren't we all self righteous hypocrites? :laugh:

With that James, I say WELCOME to the Baptist Board......Play nice. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[percho]

Title of the thread: Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

Answer: Yes. Otherwise they are not born again; not regenerated; not saved.

Maybe the question/questions should have been:

Can a person be born again and not know when he/she was born again?

Can a person believe they have been born again even knowing when and be mistaken about having been born again?

 

[salzer mtn]

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the son's of God. How can God the Spirit come into a man's soul and the man not know it at the very second it happens. Now if any man hath not the Spirit of God he is none of his. It is the Spirit which quickeneth ( maketh alive). Who hath also sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. John Baptist said, But ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire. These are but a few scripture of the experience if you want to call it that of a man when he is born from above of the Spirit. It gives a peace that passeth all understanding.

 

[righteousdude2]

James, I find you to be VERY....

I think there are two ways that "accept" are used by believers:
1) acknowledge, agree, as in "Do you accept this truth?" which I take to be passive
2) the other is less clear, but emphasis is typically on something active from man

I agree that in many cases, it is an issue of semantics - tomayto vs. tomahto
If that's the case, I care not to be contentious over which words one uses. Clarity is key, though, and lack of clarity can lead to misconceptions on the part of the hearer.

But sometimes "accept" is used as part of a "response" doctrine, where God has done all that He can to extend an offer, now the burden is placed upon the man to actively obtain it.

I hope you read my whole post. I know it got really long, and I was trying not to write a book. I was saddled, and burdened with every human responsibility one can image, to the point that grace could be found nowhere

It was what I call the "voodoo of you do" - If you do this, and you do that.
Scripture contrasts faith with works, and also declares that we are born, not of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God




I appreciate the welcome. I can already tell that there is a lot of polarization on this board, personalities conflict, and people (including me) view everything from their own paradigm.

I'm sure we'll agree and disagree many times. Everyone's convinced of their position, and sometimes expressing it will rub someone the wrong way.

I agree that we are on the same train. Thanks again, brother

....GRACIOUS! You will go a long way on the board with those like myself and quite a few others that do not get offended by other's comments and of course try not to let others push you to the place or point of becoming contentious. :thumbs:

 

[JamesL]

....GRACIOUS! You will go a long way on the board with those like myself and quite a few others that do not get offended by other's comments and of course try not to let others push you to the place or point of becoming contentious. :thumbs:

To be honest, it might seem as though I have Jekyll and Hyde syndrome for a while.

I left a different board after several years because of incessant bickering and strife. Lots of personal attacks, and I was not innocent in the matter. A pot full of insults seems to bring just the right amount of thrust to an argument. Wasn't my initial intent, but it is easy to get caught up in.

Before I left that board, I had taken a few breaks from it. I just got sick of seeing the same people arguing against the same people, over the same issues. And it was not spiritually healthy for me. I finally just couldn't stand to look in anymore, and left it behind.

I came here to engage in discussion, and even debate some, with a more peaceful demeanor. I've found myself in a few skirmishes already, but the Lord is working on me. I've tried to be quick to admit when I've said something out of bounds, and it helps that I don't get my feelings hurt easily.

So I'll press on, fighting the urges to act unwholesome, and failing from time to time.

Thanks for your encouragement. I do appreciate it

 

[DHK]

Maybe the question/questions should have been:

Can a person be born again and not know when he/she was born again?

Can a person believe they have been born again even knowing when and be mistaken about having been born again?

It comes down to an assurance of salvation, not whether or not one is born again. There are many people who have trusted Christ as their Savior in their childhood and may not remember the exact event, and many older people whose memories are failing them. But one fact they know--they know they are saved, and they know that there was a time in their lives when it happened.

When I talk to someone about their spiritual need, and they give me the answer: "I have been a Christian all my life," then I doubt that they have ever been saved in the first place, and begin right at the beginning with the gospel, and why Christ came to die for sinners.

 

[Tom Butler]

This is an important thread. It is teaching us that there is no cookie-cutter conversion experience that is common to us all.

I was always taught that if one has a doubt about his salvation, he should be able to go back to a time and a place where it happened. This seemed right because it matched my own experience. I remember that Sunday morning in 1947 when the Holy Spirit began to convict this 9-year-old boy, to open his eyes to his sin and its consequences, and to open his ears to the call to repentance and faith from my pastor down there at the front.

So it was that my salvation testimony included the phrase, "I walked the aisle when I was 9 years old." Walking the aisle=getting saved: same thing.

Then, years later, I was taught that if you could get someone to pray a prayer of repentance and faith, they could be saved. Say these magic words, and you'll be just fine.

Then, into my life came a man who knew more of the Bible than anybody I had ever known. Who demonstrated his love for the Lord and a desire to serve Him. Who had and used an extraordinary teaching gift. But there was a problem.

He didn't know when the Lord saved him. He had never walked an aisle. He had never "prayed the prayer." He simply realized one day that he had changed. That his affections were no longer aimed at the things of the world, but toward the Lord Jesus. He was given a thirst for the Word of God. And a thirst to know Him more.

But there was no event to go back to. Given what I had been taught, something was not right.

But this man obviously had faith. He lived it out every day. He studied. He taught. He gave. But, but, but he had never "prayed the prayer."

Then, I remembered. I hadn't either. When I arrived at the front,weeping, my pastor asked me a series of questions.

Why are you coming?
Do you understand that you are a sinner?
Do you understand the consequences of your sin?
Do you repent of your sin?
Do you trust Christ and Him alone for your salvation?
Okay, sit down right over there.

Over the years, I looked up all those conversion experiences in the New Testament. They're all different. Paul. The Philippian jailer. The Ethiopian eunuch. Lydia. None of them was the same. None of them walked an aisle. None of them prayed a prayer.

So, I have learned that the proper question doesn't have to be "when were you saved?" It is, "tell me where you are right now."

Maybe we need to re-evaluate the terminology we use to describe our salvation.

That's my story.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Love Your Testimony, BUT ...

This is an important thread. It is teaching us that there is no cookie-cutter conversion experience that is common to us all.

I was always taught that if one has a doubt about his salvation, he should be able to go back to a time and a place where it happened. This seemed right because it matched my own experience. I remember that Sunday morning in 1947 when the Holy Spirit began to convict this 9-year-old boy, to open his eyes to his sin and its consequences, and to open his ears to the call to repentance and faith from my pastor down there at the front.

So it was that my salvation testimony included the phrase, "I walked the aisle when I was 9 years old." Walking the aisle=getting saved: same thing.

Then, years later, I was taught that if you could get someone to pray a prayer of repentance and faith, they could be saved. Say these magic words, and you'll be just fine.

Then, into my life came a man who knew more of the Bible than anybody I had ever known. Who demonstrated his love for the Lord and a desire to serve Him. Who had and used an extraordinary teaching gift. But there was a problem.

He didn't know when the Lord saved him. He had never walked an aisle. He had never "prayed the prayer." He simply realized one day that he had changed. That his affections were no longer aimed at the things of the world, but toward the Lord Jesus. He was given a thirst for the Word of God. And a thirst to know Him more.

But there was no event to go back to. Given what I had been taught, something was not right.

But this man obviously had faith. He lived it out every day. He studied. He taught. He gave. But, but, but he had never "prayed the prayer."

Then, I remembered. I hadn't either. When I arrived at the front,weeping, my pastor asked me a series of questions.

Why are you coming?
Do you understand that you are a sinner?
Do you understand the consequences of your sin?
Do you repent of your sin?
Do you trust Christ and Him alone for your salvation?
Okay, sit down right over there.

Over the years, I looked up all those conversion experiences in the New Testament. They're all different. Paul. The Philippian jailer. The Ethiopian eunuch. Lydia. None of them was the same. None of them walked an aisle. None of them prayed a prayer.

So, I have learned that the proper question doesn't have to be "when were you saved?" It is, "tell me where you are right now."

Maybe we need to re-evaluate the terminology we use to describe our salvation.

That's my story.

... Would caution ALL of my brothers and sisters to never forget, that there are many out in this world who can quote the Word with the best of them. It is not for us to judge, just to be wise and not decieved ... listen to the words of Jesus in Mark 13:5-6 (NIV), And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6"Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He!' and will mislead many. "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.…

In fact, even the demons will claim to know Him, and of course we know they not only know Him, but tremble at his presence because in His name they can be cast out and back into the fires of Hell!

I am not saying this brother you met and talk about is a flase prophet or believer, BUT I am trying to let people know that not ALL are who they seem to be. In fact we know that many will even say, "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:23 (NIV)

Mark 1:21-28 (NLT), "Jesus and his companions went to the town of Capernaum. When the Sabbath day came, he went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, for he taught with real authority—quite unlike the teachers of religious law. Suddenly, a man in the synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit began shouting, “Why are you interfering with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God! Jesus cut him short. “Be quiet! Come out of the man,” he ordered. At that, the evil spirit screamed, threw the man into a convulsion, and then came out of him. Amazement gripped the audience, and they began to discuss what had happened. “What sort of new teaching is this?” they asked excitedly. “It has such authority! Even evil spirits obey his orders!” The news about Jesus spread quickly throughout the entire region of Galilee.

AND - James 2:19 (NLT), You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

Just be careful! It is not for us to judge, but for us to be wise....JUs' sayin'! Shalom!

​

 

[Tom Butler]

I understand about judging. I suppose that when it comes down to it, we cannot know one's heart. Except-----Jesus said we could have a way to measure it.

Matthew 7:20 "By their fruits you will know them."

So, with regard to the one I mentioned, I simply looked at his fruits.

So we do not have to judge. But we are told to be fruit inspectors.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me clarify that I am not completely opposed to what me might call the Sinner's Prayer. What I am opposed to is the mis-use of such a prayer. If we have to tell someone, "pray this prayer," or pray "something like this," we have not properly told them about how one comes into a right relationship with God.

I have heard this characterized as "one, two, three, repeat after me."

But, you might say, doesn't Romans 10:9 and 10:13 tell us to call on the name of the Lord and be saved; or confess with the mouth that Jesus is your Lord?

Yes, it does. So, why not just read them those verses, tell them, "if you truly want to be saved, then confess Christ as Lord, repent, believe, and ask Him to save you."

Then shut up. The Holy Spirit must take things from here.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me also add that while I believe God hears the prayer of one who truly repents and trusts Christ and asks the Lord to save him, Paul also wrote in Romans 10:9 that one may simply confess Christ as Lord. One may simply declare that he is submitting to the claim of the Lord Jesus on his life and soul.

The question for another thread is, when exactly does regeneration take place? I don't propose to debate that in this thread, so let's not derail what has been a good discussion so far.

 

[Yeshua1]

Weren't you already His when he selected you from before the foundations of the earth? Then when he atoned for you on the cross .....wasn't that finished? And then when the Spirit stoked
that conscience pilot light?

yes, his salvation was set from eternity past, and was based upon the death/resurrection of jesus, but still meeds to happen in real time to us in order for usto become saved, and have new natures and indwelling sealing Spirit, as unless reborn again, none of that will happen!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

yes, his salvation was set from eternity past, and was based upon the death/resurrection of jesus, but still meeds to happen in real time to us in order for usto become saved, and have new natures and indwelling sealing Spirit, as unless reborn again, none of that will happen!

OK then, why does God need a vehicle to convey the WORD (Christ)? Cant God impress upon a person supernaturally .... and couldn't that be the answer to those who never hear the gospel.

 

[JamesL]

Let me also add that while I believe God hears the prayer of one who truly repents and trusts Christ and asks the Lord to save him, Paul also wrote in Romans 10:9 that one may simply confess Christ as Lord. One may simply declare that he is submitting to the claim of the Lord Jesus on his life and soul.

It's just too bad that Romans 10 has been so horrifically abused.

The context has nothing to do with conversion. Confess is not a one-time verbal affirmation, and Saved is not regeneration. There isn't anything there to support the notion that we "ask"

Paul clearly says in verse 20 that God was made manifest to those who did NOT ask for Him.
There is a context to Romans 10

It is not easy to see, for those who love to take one or two verses, remove them from their context, then build elaborate doctrines to support unbiblical tradition and superstition

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Let me clarify that I am not completely opposed to what me might call the Sinner's Prayer. What I am opposed to is the mis-use of such a prayer. If we have to tell someone, "pray this prayer," or pray "something like this," we have not properly told them about how one comes into a right relationship with God.

That's a gross mischaracterization, Tom, and it doesn't take into account that many, many new believers -- most I've ever counseled -- have no idea how to pray. Also, your statement assumes there hasn't been several minutes, if not hours, of witness given to the person who is led in prayer. For that matter, we likely aren't the first to present the gospel to this person. It is said, though I can't vouch for any statistics on the matter, that a person must receive the gospel presentation seven to fifteen times, on average, before he/she prays that Christ enter his/her life.

But, you might say, doesn't Romans 10:9 and 10:13 tell us to call on the name of the Lord and be saved; or confess with the mouth that Jesus is your Lord?

Yes, it does. So, why not just read them those verses, tell them, "if you truly want to be saved, then confess Christ as Lord, repent, believe, and ask Him to save you."

I truly hope you don't leave them to flounder around in language totally unfamiliar to them -- unless they've grown up in and around church but just never understood the gospel well enough to respond -- and expect them to be comfortable doing so? In front of you? Really??

No, opposition to the so-called "sinner's prayer" is irrationally rooted in the strictures of fundamentalism run amok. No less than Charles Spurgeon endorsed giving an "assist" in making a "sinner's prayer."

C.H. Spurgeon Sermon # 2082: A Free Grace Promise​

O my dear hearers, do not let it be so with you! Many of you are saved; I beseech you intercede for those who are not saved. Oh, that the unconverted among you may be moved to pray. Before you leave this place, breathe an earnest prayer to God, saying, “God be merciful to me a sinner. Lord, I need to be saved. Save me. I call upon thy name.” Join with me in prayer at this moment, I entreat you. Join with me while I put words into your mouths, and speak them on your behalf—

“Lord, I am guilty. I deserve thy wrath. Lord I cannot save myself. Lord, I would have a new heart and a right spirit, but what can I do? Lord, I can do nothing, come and work in me to will and to do of thy good pleasure.

Thou alone hast power, I know,
To save a wretch like me;
To whom, or whither should I go
If I should run from thee?​

But I now do from my very soul call upon thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of thy dear Son…Lord, save me tonight, for Jesus’ sake.”

Then shut up. The Holy Spirit must take things from here.

Seems to me that's a pretty great sinner's prayer, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Tom Butler]

It's just too bad that Romans 10 has been so horrifically abused.

The context has nothing to do with conversion. Confess is not a one-time verbal affirmation, and Saved is not regeneration. There isn't anything there to support the notion that we "ask"

Paul clearly says in verse 20 that God was made manifest to those who did NOT ask for Him.
There is a context to Romans 10

It is not easy to see, for those who love to take one or two verses, remove them from their context, then build elaborate doctrines to support unbiblical tradition and superstition

I agree that saved and regenerated are two different things.

In Luke 18, Jesus tells the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector, who went up to the temple area to pray. The tax collector prayed "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."

Jesus said he went home justified. This is the basis for my comment that God will respond for such a plea for mercy and grace from a lost sinner.

Now, I do believe that such a plea comes from one who has already been regenerated. And that is a unilateral act of the Holy Spirit upon an undeserving sinner.