Does All Mean All...Does World mean All

[AustinC]

Which you have not even proved.

Sure I have. You reject what has been proven.

However all this doctrine creates a false God.

Prove it.

So your defense is coming up with your own God?

Show me exactly where this is my defense. (You have literally made it up in your brain and asserted it as being from me.)

There is no proof, I am making God subservient to my will

You claim that you must choose. If you don't choose God, then you can't be saved. All of the responsibility is on you for your salvation. God has to wait on you to make your decision. In your method of salvation, God is subservient to you.

yet you manipulate God into a form that is not even in the Bible?

Multiple passages have been shared with you from the Bible, which means you have just outright lied. Nice job.

The form of God you create is the god of fate and determinism.

Nope. That's the belief of atheists. You really have no clue about God's Sovereign rule, do you.

Not by your will, but by your false interpretation of God's Word and any one teaching what you believe.

Show me the false interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 8 and 9, John 6 and 10. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts.

You have no will, because your doctrine denies that fact.

You really have no clue.
No one has ever said that a human has no will. I have said that the will is not free because a human has no capacity to free himself from the bondage of sin. God must choose to take your "dead in trespasses and sins" person and "make you alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9 some time)

My point was God is not willing, thus the Atonement.

What does this sentence mean? You can't get it from 2 Peter 3:9, so what are you talking about?
Christ Jesus atonement is a payment for sin. If Jesus paid for all sin, then all sins are paid for. That means that all humans are found in Christ and are made perfect. That is what universal atonement means.

All humans have the ability to choose God's will.

This is demonstrably false. Humans who never hear of Jesus atonement for their sins have no ability to choose that of which they know nothing. Person's born with impaired cognitive function cannot choose God's will.
No human has the capacity to free themselves from the prison of sin. Humans can only respond God when he chooses to free them.
Once a person made alive in Christ, they then have the capacity to choose obedience to Christ, but until God makes them alive in Christ, they cannot choose to make themselves alive when they are dead.

How is that changing or making God’s will subservient?

I already showed you.

That is humanity conforming to God’s will and leaving sinful flesh behind.

Dead people cannot conform to God's will and leave sin behind. They are dead in their trespasses and sin. God must make them alive in Christ, then they can conform to God's will and put to death their flesh.

God's will is that all be transformed into the image of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God

Yet, that doesn't happen for many people. (Here is where you make God subservient to the will of men by the way.)
Since that doesn't happen for many people, it either means that God's will is rather weak or it means that human will is greater than God's will.

Remaining in sin is just doing nothing at all.

Correct. People who are dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing at all. God must make them alive before they can do anything.

Accepting God's will, IS letting God do all the work.

This is true for the person whom God has made alive in Christ.
Dead men cannot accept God's will as they are dead in their trespasses and sins. God must make them alive in Christ.

No manipulation on either side.

And...here is your teaching that God is entirely passive and does nothing.

God is willing to do all the conforming.

You just said God does no manipulation. Which is it, does God do nothing or does God do the conforming? (By the way, here you are stating that God must choose, so you're actually arguing against yourself.)

We are willing to be conformed, because we have free will to change our mind.

Dead people cannot choose to be conformed to God. In fact the Bible says that no one will seek God. It tells us that humans are in rebellion to God and are bent on overthrowing God so that they rule themselves.
People whom God makes alive in Christ will struggle with their sinful flesh and the Holy Spirit who indwells them. We, as Christians, have the capacity to obey or fight God's will for us. But, dead people cannot choose. They are dead.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Sure I have. You reject what has been proven.


Prove it.


Show me exactly where this is my defense. (You have literally made it up in your brain and asserted it as being from me.)



You claim that you must choose. If you don't choose God, then you can't be saved. All of the responsibility is on you for your salvation. God has to wait on you to make your decision. In your method of salvation, God is subservient to you.


Multiple passages have been shared with you from the Bible, which means you have just outright lied. Nice job.


Nope. That's the belief of atheists. You really have no clue about God's Sovereign rule, do you.



Show me the false interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 8 and 9, John 6 and 10. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts.


You really have no clue.
No one has ever said that a human has no will. I have said that the will is not free because a human has no capacity to free himself from the bondage of sin. God must choose to take your "dead in trespasses and sins" person and "make you alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9 some time)


What does this sentence mean? You can't get it from 2 Peter 3:9, so what are you talking about?
Christ Jesus atonement is a payment for sin. If Jesus paid for all sin, then all sins are paid for. That means that all humans are found in Christ and are made perfect. That is what universal atonement means.


This is demonstrably false. Humans who never hear of Jesus atonement for their sins have no ability to choose that of which they know nothing. Person's born with impaired cognitive function cannot choose God's will.
No human has the capacity to free themselves from the prison of sin. Humans can only respond God when he chooses to free them.
Once a person made alive in Christ, they then have the capacity to choose obedience to Christ, but until God makes them alive in Christ, they cannot choose to make themselves alive when they are dead.


I already showed you.


Dead people cannot conform to God's will and leave sin behind. They are dead in their trespasses and sin. God must make them alive in Christ, then they can conform to God's will and put to death their flesh.


Yet, that doesn't happen for many people. (Here is where you make God subservient to the will of men by the way.)
Since that doesn't happen for many people, it either means that God's will is rather weak or it means that human will is greater than God's will.


Correct. People who are dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing at all. God must make them alive before they can do anything.


This is true for the person whom God has made alive in Christ.
Dead men cannot accept God's will as they are dead in their trespasses and sins. God must make them alive in Christ.


And...here is your teaching that God is entirely passive and does nothing.


You just said God does no manipulation. Which is it, does God do nothing or does God do the conforming? (By the way, here you are stating that God must choose, so you're actually arguing against yourself.)


Dead people cannot choose to be conformed to God. In fact the Bible says that no one will seek God. It tells us that humans are in rebellion to God and are bent on overthrowing God so that they rule themselves.
People whom God makes alive in Christ will struggle with their sinful flesh and the Holy Spirit who indwells them. We, as Christians, have the capacity to obey or fight God's will for us. But, dead people cannot choose. They are dead.

What a great post and use of scripture!

 

[timtofly]

Sure I have. You reject what has been proven.
Show me exactly where this is my defense. (You have literally made it up in your brain and asserted it as being from me.)
You claim that you must choose. If you don't choose God, then you can't be saved. All of the responsibility is on you for your salvation. God has to wait on you to make your decision. In your method of salvation, God is subservient to you.
Multiple passages have been shared with you from the Bible, which means you have just outright lied. Nice job.
Nope. That's the belief of atheists. You really have no clue about God's Sovereign rule, do you.
Show me the false interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 8 and 9, John 6 and 10. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts.
No one has ever said that a human has no will. I have said that the will is not free because a human has no capacity to free himself from the bondage of sin. God must choose to take your "dead in trespasses and sins" person and "make you alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9 some time)
What does this sentence mean? You can't get it from 2 Peter 3:9, so what are you talking about?
Christ Jesus atonement is a payment for sin. If Jesus paid for all sin, then all sins are paid for. That means that all humans are found in Christ and are made perfect. That is what universal atonement means.

This is demonstrably false. Humans who never hear of Jesus atonement for their sins have no ability to choose that of which they know nothing. Person's born with impaired cognitive function cannot choose God's will.
No human has the capacity to free themselves from the prison of sin. Humans can only respond God when he chooses to free them.
Once a person made alive in Christ, they then have the capacity to choose obedience to Christ, but until God makes them alive in Christ, they cannot choose to make themselves alive when they are dead.
Dead people cannot conform to God's will and leave sin behind. They are dead in their trespasses and sin. God must make them alive in Christ, then they can conform to God's will and put to death their flesh.
Yet, that doesn't happen for many people. (Here is where you make God subservient to the will of men by the way.)
Since that doesn't happen for many people, it either means that God's will is rather weak or it means that human will is greater than God's will.
Correct. People who are dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing at all. God must make them alive before they can do anything.
This is true for the person whom God has made alive in Christ.
Dead men cannot accept God's will as they are dead in their trespasses and sins. God must make them alive in Christ.
And...here is your teaching that God is entirely passive and does nothing.
You just said God does no manipulation. Which is it, does God do nothing or does God do the conforming? (By the way, here you are stating that God must choose, so you're actually arguing against yourself.)


Dead people cannot choose to be conformed to God. In fact the Bible says that no one will seek God. It tells us that humans are in rebellion to God and are bent on overthrowing God so that they rule themselves.
People whom God makes alive in Christ will struggle with their sinful flesh and the Holy Spirit who indwells them. We, as Christians, have the capacity to obey or fight God's will for us. But, dead people cannot choose. They are dead.

So this all boils down to manipulation? So why use the term, if it causes such a fuss? Free will allows God to work freely. Without it, you all just create a road block that does not exist. God works as Sovereign with grace not manipulation. So saying God is passive is a lie. Grace is not passive. God’s will is done in love and mercy. You really need a better view than mere manipulation. It is the false view of limited Atonement that makes strange ideas such as manipulation.

Now if you want me to accept verses that states God manipulates those dead in sin that is fine. However those dead in sin are reprobate, and can only change their minds, by God’s direct will. See Daniel 4.

About those who never heard? Athiest like asking that question.

Being accountable means being able to think and reason. God has that all covered in God's Sovereignty. Atonement is not limited to some, but available to all. Free Will as defined still exists. Free will does not cause any Scripture to be broken. Unless people keep changing all the definitions and attempting to make wrong interpretations, doctrine, ALL the WORLD will be just fine. Satan is not in control, God is. Why so many are deceived by Satan is still God's plan and sovereign control. Now if we could just exercise our free will, and repent and seek God’s face, and turn from our individual wickedness, and humble ourselves, then God will do what God promised to do. Perhaps God gave us the keys that bind heaven to earth for a reason, yet we are too afraid to come boldly before the throne of Grace? Thy kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[MB]

What I'm seeing here is that you might perhaps think it is acceptable to avoid facts, preferring instead to verbally assault others who do not agree with you.

I don't read Greek but my Pastor teaches it. What I posted comes from the BLB is accurate.

The Bible is my standard for Christian speech.

When you start with personal attacks, it demonstrates you have lost the argument.

Colossians 3:17 English Standard Version (ESV)

17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Ephesians 4 New King James Version (NKJV)

4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

Remember, unbelievers are lurking.

Where did I attack you ? You falsely accuse me of attack and then you do exactly that. You attack me. I'm just telling you the truth if you can't take it don't read my post
MBtt

 

[MB]

My issue is with you, who makes God subservient to your will.

Since you believe you are saved with out any belief on your part. Prove it with scripture that you were saved with out faith.
MB

 

[MB]

Sure I have. You reject what has been proven.


Prove it.


Show me exactly where this is my defense. (You have literally made it up in your brain and asserted it as being from me.)



You claim that you must choose. If you don't choose God, then you can't be saved. All of the responsibility is on you for your salvation. God has to wait on you to make your decision. In your method of salvation, God is subservient to you.


Multiple passages have been shared with you from the Bible, which means you have just outright lied. Nice job.


Nope. That's the belief of atheists. You really have no clue about God's Sovereign rule, do you.



Show me the false interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 8 and 9, John 6 and 10. I'll wait for you to collect your thoughts.


You really have no clue.
No one has ever said that a human has no will. I have said that the will is not free because a human has no capacity to free himself from the bondage of sin. God must choose to take your "dead in trespasses and sins" person and "make you alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9 some time)


What does this sentence mean? You can't get it from 2 Peter 3:9, so what are you talking about?
Christ Jesus atonement is a payment for sin. If Jesus paid for all sin, then all sins are paid for. That means that all humans are found in Christ and are made perfect. That is what universal atonement means.


This is demonstrably false. Humans who never hear of Jesus atonement for their sins have no ability to choose that of which they know nothing. Person's born with impaired cognitive function cannot choose God's will.
No human has the capacity to free themselves from the prison of sin. Humans can only respond God when he chooses to free them.
Once a person made alive in Christ, they then have the capacity to choose obedience to Christ, but until God makes them alive in Christ, they cannot choose to make themselves alive when they are dead.


I already showed you.


Dead people cannot conform to God's will and leave sin behind. They are dead in their trespasses and sin. God must make them alive in Christ, then they can conform to God's will and put to death their flesh.


Yet, that doesn't happen for many people. (Here is where you make God subservient to the will of men by the way.)
Since that doesn't happen for many people, it either means that God's will is rather weak or it means that human will is greater than God's will.


Correct. People who are dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing at all. God must make them alive before they can do anything.


This is true for the person whom God has made alive in Christ.
Dead men cannot accept God's will as they are dead in their trespasses and sins. God must make them alive in Christ.


And...here is your teaching that God is entirely passive and does nothing.


You just said God does no manipulation. Which is it, does God do nothing or does God do the conforming? (By the way, here you are stating that God must choose, so you're actually arguing against yourself.)


Dead people cannot choose to be conformed to God. In fact the Bible says that no one will seek God. It tells us that humans are in rebellion to God and are bent on overthrowing God so that they rule themselves.
People whom God makes alive in Christ will struggle with their sinful flesh and the Holy Spirit who indwells them. We, as Christians, have the capacity to obey or fight God's will for us. But, dead people cannot choose. They are dead.

You sir have not proven anything.
MB

 

[AustinC]

What a great post and use of scripture!

Read the whole thread then respond. My comment isn't in a vacuum. If I haven't shown scripture passages, you can certainly show that.

 

[AustinC]

You sir have not proven anything.
MB

Sure I have. Over and over again, I have provided scripture passages in their context. The proof is in scripture.
What hasn't happened is you haven't budged from your position, which is built upon a presupposition that is propped up by a few sentences as prooftext, out of context.
Much like a "flat earther" you refuse to accept the evidence and data that has been repeatedly shown to you. You alone are responsible for your rejection of the data.

 

[AustinC]

Since you believe you are saved with out any belief on your part. Prove it with scripture that you were saved with out faith.
MB

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[MB]

Read the whole thread then respond. My comment isn't in a vacuum. If I haven't shown scripture passages, you can certainly show that.

Of course you can't show proof you have to have a woman do that for you. You don't do it your self because you can't prove your doctrine. Heheheheheheheh!
MB

 

[MB]

Sure I have. Over and over again, I have provided scripture passages in their context. The proof is in scripture.
What hasn't happened is you haven't budged from your position, which is built upon a presupposition that is propped up by a few sentences as prooftext, out of context.
Much like a "flat earther" you refuse to accept the evidence and data that has been repeatedly shown to you. You alone are responsible for your rejection of the data.

What a boastful claim you make here Prove it.
MB

 

[AustinC]

So this all boils down to manipulation? So why use the term, if it causes such a fuss? Free will allows God to work freely. Without it, you all just create a road block that does not exist. God works as Sovereign with grace not manipulation. So saying God is passive is a lie. Grace is not passive. God’s will is done in love and mercy. You really need a better view than mere manipulation. It is the false view of limited Atonement that makes strange ideas such as manipulation.

Now if you want me to accept verses that states God manipulates those dead in sin that is fine. However those dead in sin are reprobate, and can only change their minds, by God’s direct will. See Daniel 4.

About those who never heard? Athiest like asking that question.

Being accountable means being able to think and reason. God has that all covered in God's Sovereignty. Atonement is not limited to some, but available to all. Free Will as defined still exists. Free will does not cause any Scripture to be broken. Unless people keep changing all the definitions and attempting to make wrong interpretations, doctrine, ALL the WORLD will be just fine. Satan is not in control, God is. Why so many are deceived by Satan is still God's plan and sovereign control. Now if we could just exercise our free will, and repent and seek God’s face, and turn from our individual wickedness, and humble ourselves, then God will do what God promised to do. Perhaps God gave us the keys that bind heaven to earth for a reason, yet we are too afraid to come boldly before the throne of Grace? Thy kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

All this boils down to who chooses to save an individual.

Does God choose to save individuals he has selected from before the foundation of the world?

Does God choose to save all the world, but humans overcome God's choice and thus beat God's army back into submission by rejecting God as their King?

 

[MB]

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

None I repeat none of this proves your false Claim of regeneration before Salvation. The only thing men need to be saved is faith.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

What does it take for an individual's free will to believe The Bible?

 

[Salty]

Six hour notice

This thread will be closed no sooner that 4 pm EDT / 1 PM PDT Fri 19 Aug.

 

[MB]

What does it take for an individual's free will to believe The Bible?

Hearing the gospel.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This proves they can hear below.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
No longer can men claim the inability of man to hear.
MB

 

[MB]

All this boils down to who chooses to save an individual.

Does God choose to save individuals he has selected from before the foundation of the world?

Does God choose to save all the world, but humans overcome God's choice and thus beat God's army back into submission by rejecting God as their King?

Jesus has already choose to save all who believe on Him and all who come to Him and those who ask. There is no inability.
MB

 

[AustinC]

What a boastful claim you make here Prove it.
MB

I already did, on multiple occasions. You simply reject all the evidence that has been shown you over many threads here on the Baptist Board.
Clearly, you have no intention of giving up control to God. That is between you and God.

 

[AustinC]

Hearing the gospel.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This proves they can hear below.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
No longer can men claim the inability of man to hear.
MB

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Alan Gross]

The Spirit of God Must Be Present to Give an individual's free will THE SPIRITUALLY TEACHABLE SPIRIT to believe The Bible?

Otherwise, what is Taught is simply denied and told to others that they can no longer believe it, either.

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them". Proverbs 20:12.

God Gives belief, Giving them Conviction of their sins through the Preaching of The Gospel of Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

What an individual believes is WHAT THEY ARE GIVEN THE ENABLING ABILITY TO HEAR in The Word of God Convicting them that Jesus Died for them, since they are miserable, wicked, blind, naked, dead in trespasses and sins, undone, without strength to 'believe', 'choose', 'activate their flesh to become a Partaker of The Divine Nature', etc.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

...

Yes, God Saves some Gentiles, through Giving them Conviction of their sins through the Preaching of The Gospel of Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection. That is His Message in Act 28:28

1 Corinthians 2:10 |
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The correct answer to, "What does it take for an individual's free will to believe The Bible?", is not the finite, carnal, flesh.