Does "enlightened" mean saved?

[Calminian]

In the passage stated, John 12, the audience were Jews......

I've already debunked this in a previous post (51), giving references. It's just not true. He was speaking to Jews and Greeks.

 

[Alan Gross]

The passages from John I'll be highlighting below were not received well (by some) in a previous thread. By that, I mean, they were virtually ignored and cast aside as irrelevant. This is amazing, as these passages hold they key to understanding the doctrine of enlightenment.

Here are the actual passages.

John 1:6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. (emphasis mine)

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (emphasis mine)​

John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them, “For a little while longer the light is among you. Walk while you have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.” (emphasis mine)​

Here are some of the truths about light and enlightenment we glean from these passages.

• Light and enlightenment are metaphors for knowledge.
• Jesus is the true light who enlightens.
• Enlightenment comes (in some way) to every man.
• Enlightenment comes before faith.
• Enlightenment must be responded to while it remains.
• Only those who respond to enlightenment with belief, become saved.
• Enlightenment itself, therefore, is not synonymous with salvation.

Very simple and straightforward. These passages are key in understanding the doctrine of enlightenment and should give us insight into other passages in the Bible which speak of individuals being once enlightened, such as Hebrews 6:4-9, Hebrews 10:26-39, 2Peter 2:20-22.

Heb. 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.​

So do these hypothetical individuals lose (fall away from) their salvation? No, as it doesn't appear any salvation terms are used here.

Do they keep their salvation? No, as there is no indication they ever responded to their enlightenment with belief, and were ever saved.

Then what did they fall away from? In a phrase, the truth! Jesus brought light (truth) to the world—to "every man." This is not to say that all men know the truth all the time, but it does seem to say all men (all adults), at some point, receive some kind of illumination from God, either about their need for Jesus or about their need to seek out further truth. When they receive this, they are obligated to respond with faith while it remains. If they respond in continual unbelief, they are in grave danger of losing this illumination, and by extension their opportunity to believe. Peter says it this way:

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.​

To recap, John's Gospel tells us what happens to those who respond to enlightenment with belief. They become children of God, and sons of Light.

Hebrews 6, 10 and 2Peter 2, on the other hand, tell us what happens to those who don't respond in genuine belief. They become darkened to the truth with no other hope (which is quite terrifying). But they also let us know that this fate is not the fate of true believers.

Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Heb. 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.​

I would submit, therefore, that it is impossible to have have an intelligent conversation about the meaning of enlightenment in Hebrews 6 and 10, apart from a discussion about John 1 and 12 (and many other verses in John).

So, tell me why I'm wrong.

You indicate to me that you have been with Jesus.

I love what you have written.

I rejoice in God and drank it down like a thirsty soul.

Superb.

Wonderful Bible insight.

Carry on. Godspeed.

 

[Alan Gross]

I see that same thing. No man comes unless he is drawn by God.

The passages does not say, however, all who are drawn come. It merely says all who come have been drawn. This would also be true of some men were drawn in some sense, but did not come. All who come have been drawn, is not the same as all who are drawn, come.

Now you can make the argument, that there is a separate efficacious drawing for the elect. Some Calvinists do. But they don't use the passage you're using.

You're committing a basic fallacy. It's like saying, all who came to my party were invited, therefore, all I invited came to my party. It's obvious the concluding statement doesn't follow. The party thrower may have invited additional people that did not come.

The Eternally Effective 'drawing' is Irresistible.

I haven't read Calvin, except a couple of sentences posted here on the Board.

We are His workmanship, Created in Christ Jesus.

His sheep hear His Voice.

No man can come, Spiritually, because they have none, until God Spiritually Imputes their soul with The New Birth.

Jesus is The Savior.

Those who say 'they chose by their power to have faith and belief, etc.' ; did they resist God's Drawing them?

No, they were enlightened to some things they saw and experienced and 'desided' to become a Christian, and to then, 'fill God in on it, to write them down or something'.

Many of those that are religiously lost come and go and then fall away.

Nothing resists The Saving Power of God.

Those God Saves Can Spiritually be Taught Who He is and Who Saved them and why.

They would never care to 'resist' that Saving Drawing, if they could.

 

[Calminian]

You indicate to me that you have been with Jesus.

I love what you have written.

I rejoice in God and drank it down like a thirsty soul.

Superb.

Wonderful Bible insight.

Carry on. Godspeed.

Thank you. Those are some very kind flattering words.

 

[Calminian]

The Eternally Effective 'drawing' is Irresistible.

I haven't read Calvin, except a couple of sentences posted here on the Board.

We are His workmanship, Created in Christ Jesus.

His sheep hear His Voice.

No man can come, Spiritually, because they have none, until God Spiritually Imputes their soul with The New Birth.

Jesus is The Savior.

Those who say 'they chose by their power to have faith and belief, etc.' ; did they resist God's Drawing them?

No, they were enlightened to some things they saw and experienced and 'desided' to become a Christian, and to then, 'fill God in on it, to write them down or something'.

Many of those that are religiously lost come and go and then fall away.

Nothing resists The Saving Power of God.

Those God Saves Can Spiritually be Taught Who He is and Who Saved them and why.

They would never care to 'resist' that Saving Drawing, if they could.

You might be right, and there are some passages that seem to suggest this. On this one, I'm in the mystery camp. Maybe we can grasp this, maybe we can't. But this I know. God is the author and perfecter of my faith. All credit goes to him in salvation, and no blame can be attributed to him in condemnation.

 

[Alan Gross]

You might be right, and there are some passages that seem to suggest this. On this one, I'm in the mystery camp. Maybe we can grasp this, maybe we can't. But this I know. God is the author and perfecter of my faith. All credit goes to him in salvation, and no blame can be attributed to him in condemnation.

ABSOLUTELY.

THERE IS A GOD WE CAN WORSHIP.

 

[Alan Gross]

There are Systematic Doctrines written out by many authors, with PLENTY of Scriptures.

That just means there are PLENTY of Scriptures.

Worth seeing.

Of Efficacious Grace

Introduction - Of Efficacious Grace

These Scriptures are considered and treated on the subject:

Ephesians 1:19, 20 "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

2 Corinthians 5:17

John 3:5

Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

1 Corinthians 2:14

2 Corinthians 3:5

John 15:5

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Acts 9:18 "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Acts 16:14 "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things that were spoken of Paul".

Jeremiah 31:18

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts."

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh".

Philippians 2:13

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou, that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it?"

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast"