Dave G
Well-Known Member
Please show me the Scriptures that clearly state that God gives men ( outside of an already-existing covenant ) a choice to believe on Christ for eternal salvation.
Not by implication, but by declaration.
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Does "enlightened" mean saved?
- Thread starter Calminian
- Start date
Not by implication, but by declaration.
Well, you do not understand or accept who you are not the circumstances of your situation
it is like saying those on death row a pardon offered for everone must show a pardon specific to an individual and need of a pardon
Eph 2:4
¶
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Luk 24:46¶
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You seem to forget salvation is a result of proper repentance.
In regard to the OP,
examine where the words darkness and light thus enlightenment are used and to whom they apply
one is sin or sinners in darkness and the other is saved or redeemed in light,
Jesus said
Jhn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life
Jhn 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Isa 9:1
¶
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
Isa 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Mat 4:14
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17
¶
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
examine where the words darkness and light thus enlightenment are used and to whom they apply
one is sin or sinners in darkness and the other is saved or redeemed in light,
Jesus said
Jhn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life
Jhn 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Isa 9:1
¶
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
Isa 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Mat 4:14
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17
¶
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Hollow Man
Active Member
Thank you for that compelling rebuttal. I can tell you put a lot of thought into that response.
i have on both points, of Heb 6 and the use of light and dark through out scripture, both figurative and literal
It is a revealing study,
Dave G
Well-Known Member
You seem to forget that salvation is by grace ( Ephesians 2:8 ), not of works ( like repentance, Titus 3:5-6 ) lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
"Proper repentance" does not precede the gift, it follows it.
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It precedes it salvation or one does not understand the need for change. The Holy Spirit works to convict us of sin and shows Jesus as our only Savior
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That is what the word of God and the power of the Spirit is for.
To "convict", and bring the believer to Him.
As you can see, I agree.
But, as has been the pattern between us for the past year or so since I've joined this forum, you seem to believe that a person is saved when they believe, while I believe that a person is saved before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), and they are then notified of that precious gift by the Lord....who uses His word ( His Gospel ) and His Spirit to change their hearts.
That is all for another thread.
However, in the spirit of the OP, I do not believe that everyone who hears the word of God believes it from the heart ( not just the mind ).
Neither do I believe that everyone who believes that they are a sinner, is actually saved.
For example, I know of individuals who freely admit that they are sinners...and they enjoy it.
I also know of people who are willing to do anything to get out of Hell.
So they join "churches" and "do what Christians do" for promises from the pulpit that include a better life, answered prayers, and an escape from Hell after this life.
I know of many people in my daily life, who refuse to believe all of God's words, even though they profess Christ as Saviour, sometimes adamantly.
Yet, there's been no obvious change in their lives and no genuine love for God.
They live like the world, don't see anything wrong with "certain sins", and have no trouble wallowing in sin and the ways of the world.
Were they "enlightened" ( by the power of God )?
If they were, they would have stayed the course and not fallen back into the world and its ways.
They would have continued in His word ( John 8:31 ), growing in both knowledge and grace ( 2 Peter 3:18 ).
They would carefully weigh His words, and "hear" them, even if they don't immediately understand them.
Therefore, to me, "lights" ( or "lighteth" ) in John 1:9 does not mean "saved".
If it did, then everyone would be saved... because Jesus "lights" every man who comes into the world.
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it is not "before" as precede but "in front of" as all the worlds sees, or acknowledge the Lamb slain
Everyone who hears understand the needs for repentance and accepts that Christ is the way for Salvation
It is dependent upon the failure of man but the sufficiency of Christ
God is willing and able to saved all but will not violate the choice to love him or not
Everyone who hears understand the needs for repentance and accepts that Christ is the way for Salvation
It is dependent upon the failure of man but the sufficiency of Christ
God is willing and able to saved all but will not violate the choice to love him or not
Yes, it's the same identical Greek word (photizo) for both John 1:9 and Hebrews 6:4. John told us Christ enlightens every man. Not much detail is given in the exact process, but it is universal.
I think it means enlightens, which is the idea that it enables sight to some degree, which in-turn demands a response.
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but John's Gospel starts out with a statement that Jesus enlightens "every man." Plus you look at the context of chapter 12 from verse 20 and it's clear Jesus is speaking to Jews and Greeks. He speaks of drawing all men to himself in verse 32. Verses 35 and 36 are in the very context of that statement. There is no shift to Israel indicated.
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I think enlightenment is definitely a broad term used to indicate acquiring knowledge. It can be used completely separate from a salvation context, like when Paul hoped for the believers to become enlightened to their high calling. There is also a pre-salvation enlightenment with a key theme of responsibility.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is universal.
I disagree.
Here is the Greek word you've referenced:
phótizó: to shine, give light
Original Word: φωτίζωPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phótizó
Phonetic Spelling: (fo-tid'-zo)
Definition: to shine, give light
Usage: (a) I light up, illumine, (b) I bring to light, make evident, reveal.
Strong's G5461.
Source:
Strong's Greek: 5461. φωτίζω (phótizó) -- to shine, give light
As I said, "cast light on".
The reason I stated this, was because of what other Scriptures say about who God chooses to reveal Himself to.
Some English translation use the word, "enlightens", as if Jesus is revealing Himself to all men in a glorious, "saving" fashion.
I don't think that He is.
I agree.
I disagree.
The text in John 12:32 does not use the term "all men" ( especially in the AV ), it uses the term "all", with "men" in italics as a helper... and not strictly part of the text.
In the NKJV, it uses "all", with "peoples" in italics.
The Greek word ( Strong's 3956 ) being used is transliterated, "pantas", which means "all".
There is no word in the Greek in John 12:32 associated with "pantas" that means " men", like what is seen in Romans 5:12...
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
"Pantas anthropos" = "All men".
So, Jesus is not drawing "all men" to Himself...
He is drawing "all" to Himself.
It may seem insignificant to some people, but it isn't to me.
In addition, 6 chapters back in John 6:44, He clearly states that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws them.
So, if Christ is drawing all men to Himself in any sort of "salvation sense" ( or even one that demands a response from everyone ), then He is lying in John 6:44 when He states that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws them...and, all that come to Him in this fashion, will be raised up at the last day.
That is in the "salvation sense".
Finally, take a careful look at John 12:37-43 and tell me what you think that it states.
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I am basing this idea on a clear theme that's often stated in Scripture. There is a responsibility to respond to light.
John 12:36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
Jer. 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
There is a similar warning in regard to hearing God's voice.
Heb. 3:15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
This concept is undeniable.
Yes, because all the translators know that all is an obvious reference to men. All means all.
It's referring to people, unless you think animals can be drawn. We do this same thing in english. If we say y'all we're not referring to animals. It's common in all languages to use all in this way. There's no exception in the biblical languages that I've heard of.
When your'e trying to harmonize Scripture with a theology, you can pull things like that from just about everywhere. I just let the Scripture says was it says, and formulate the theology accordingly.
John 6:44 merely says that all who are saved had to be drawn. It does not say all who are drawn are saved. Perfectly compatible. Jesus told the truth in both passages.
Perfectly compatible with the above passages and the insights from Hebrews 6 and 10. God hardens hearts. The will is not always free. There are windows of opportunity that must be responded to.
"Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
That responsibility fell on the Jews, as a nation.
Pay close attention to whom He is speaking, and what the nature of the first covenant of Law required.
Also, what the Jews, as a nation, agreed to obey.
All the commands of God ( Exodus 19:8, Exodus 24:3, Joshua 1:16 ).
Jesus is holding them responsible to do that very thing, in John 12.
Again, I agree.
That warning was given to Hebrew believers, who, once again, were responsible as a nation, to obey God.
The warnings in Hebrews are directed at Jewish believers, for the most part, because of their historic failure to obey the Lord when they said that they would.
But, at the end of it all, only Christ's sheep will "hear" His voice ( John 8:47, John 10:27 ).
The translators need to stick to their jobs...translating the word of God, word for word, and accurately.
But instead many of them, especially today, take liberties with God's words and add in things that are simply not there in the Greek and Hebrew.
Where do you think I get it?
"Systematic theology" or strictly from reading and believing God's words?
it says a lot more than that, sir.
But I agree with your statement.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Sure it does.
Let's look at the words:
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).
Here's what I see when I read this "verse"...
1) No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws them.
2) No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws them.
3) No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws them.
4) All who come, are raised up at the last day.
So, not only can no man come to Christ "savingly" unless the Father draws them, all who are drawn in this way, are raised up ( resurrected ) at the last day...His second coming.
If that isn't salvation, I do not know what it is.
I agree.
Romans 9:14-18 among others.
I think this is for another thread.
For now, I will state that I do not see this declared anywhere in God's word, except to those to whom God gives the privilege of responding.
I see that it could be implied by certain passages, but not declared.
If it is declared, it is declared only to those, like Israel, whom God had already established a covenant with.
Again, John 12:36 is speaking to Israel, not to all men as I see it.
May God bless you sir.
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And all people everywhere. As I pointed out, the context of John is not just Jews. It's to all.
Yes, you would do well to do this.
With all due respect, if you have to appeal to translation conspiracies you're probably on the wrong path. I'll trust the translators.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
In the passage stated, John 12:34-43 the audience were Jews.
Christ also said that He was not sent to the Gentiles, like Paul was, but to the Jews:
" But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ( Matthew 15:24 ).
I appreciate the advice.
With respect, I'll trust the Lord and not men ( Psalms 118:8, Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
That's why I check the translations ( especially the more modern ones ) against the Greek.
This is my last reply in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.
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I see that same thing. No man comes unless he is drawn by God.
The passages does not say, however, all who are drawn come. It merely says all who come have been drawn. This would also be true of some men were drawn in some sense, but did not come. All who come have been drawn, is not the same as all who are drawn, come.
Now you can make the argument, that there is a separate efficacious drawing for the elect. Some Calvinists do. But they don't use the passage you're using.
You're committing a basic fallacy. It's like saying, all who came to my party were invited, therefore, all I invited came to my party. It's obvious the concluding statement doesn't follow. The party thrower may have invited additional people that did not come.