Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

[Barry Johnson]

Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

I John 4:19, "We love Him, because He first loved us."

It doesn't say ' there's none that can believe the Gospel , none that can respond positively to God or the Holy Spirit .
And' Love' is not the Gospel .The Gospel demonstrates the love of God . No greater love than this . A person has to believe to recieve Jesus .

 

[37818]

It doesn't say ' there's none that can believe the Gospel , none that can respond positively to God or the Holy Spirit .
And' Love' is not the Gospel .The Gospel demonstrates the love of God . No greater love than this . A person has to believe to recieve Jesus .

The question of the OP is "Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - . . ."

 

[Barry Johnson]

The question of the OP is "Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - . . ."

Choose man to do what ? Choose man for what ?
God chose to save those that believe .
Chosen is ALWAYS to do or for something .

 

[AustinC]

And yet not one of those verses has any thing to do with Calvernism. Thats why no one outside of calvarminism reads into these texts the same . What calvernism does is it starts off with the faulty view of total depravity . Once this has taken hold its very difficult to see your way back . Its like navigation . One degree out your way off course , and by the time you've swallowed U.L.I.P that's it the mind is set . I managed to get out in time fortunately. Once you see how off calvernism and Arminism is ,it will shock you . You.ll wonder how you ever were fooled .

Of course there is no mention of Calvin in the Bible. Those passages state that God chooses, elects, adopts and predestines. You are merely propping up Calvin as an excuse to ignore what the Bible teaches.
Barry, focus, we're addressing the Bible and nothing else. You are using Calvin as a diversion and distraction to avoid the Bible. Your tactic is only being bought and accepted by yourself and anyone who wishes to deny the authority of God over ones salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Well when we look at the Parables in the Gospel s there mainy about Israel .

Who is Israel?

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

You are squirming to avoid the truth presented in the Bible that God chooses and elects his children.

 

[AustinC]

Choose man to do what ? Choose man for what ?
God chose to save those that believe .
Chosen is ALWAYS to do or for something .

God chose to make a person alive with Christ, to save by grace, and to give a man faith so that the man might believe.

Belief does not come before God saves by grace. Belief comes afterward.

 

[Alan Gross]

I never looked at that passage as supporting God choosing for salvation.

I’ll have to think about it

peace to you

This is a statement of that position, from Gill:

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man,.... That is, the Gospel Age, or times of the Messiah, may fitly be represented by a man

that is an householder, or master of a family, as Christ is;

See Gill on Matthew 10:25

Jesus Christ is master of the whole family of God, in heaven, and in earth, of all the children of God, and household of faith; his house they are, he is Father and master, son and firstborn, priest and prophet there.

Which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard: by "the vineyard" may be meant the church (My note: Jesus' churches that Do Business for God, as He Divinely Created and Founded and Commissioned them to do, of which Gill was not as thoroughly enlightened as all his other insights*), which, like a vineyard, is separated by electing, redeeming, and calling grace, and by the order and ordinances of the Gospel, from the rest of the world; is set with various vines, with trees of righteousness, with pleasant plants, both fruitful and profitable; and which are dear and valuable to Christ; and about which much care is used to preserve, keep, and improve them.

This may be called "his", Christ's, being what he has chosen for himself, his Father has given him, and he is heir of; which he has purchased with his blood, and which he plants, waters, takes care of, and enjoys.

The "labourers" design either the ministers of the Gospel, who labour in the word and doctrine, who are, or at least ought to be, labourers in Christ's vineyard, and not loiterers;

...whose work in study, meditation, and prayer, in the ministration of the word and ordinances, and in performing other services they are called unto, is very laborious; and made more so, through the wickedness of some, and weakness of others: the employment of these labourers in the vineyard is various; the business of some is to plant; they are chiefly made use of in conversion: the work of others is to water;

... these are instruments in edification, and means of the growth of grace: others have a good hand at pruning, giving reproofs and corrections, in a suitable manner, with success, to the checking of sin, and bringing forth more fruit: others are useful in propping and supporting the vines, comforting and strengthening weak believers; and others in protecting and defending the outworks of the church, the doctrines and ordinances of it:

or else private Christians, in general, may be intended, who all are, or should be labourers, both in the exercise of grace; for there is the work of faith, and the labour of love, to God, Christ, and his people, in which they should be continually employed;

...and in the discharge of duty, with regard to themselves; and in the care of their own vineyard, with respect to their families, which are their charge, and also to the church of Christ, of which they are members.

These labourers are said to be "hired" by the householder, or owner of the vineyard, Christ, not strictly and properly speaking;

...nor does it mean that he had no prior right to their obedience, or that there is any merit in their labour, or that that is the condition of their salvation;

...but it signifies the influence of his grace, in making them willing to serve him cheerfully, and labour in his vineyard freely;

...to encourage them in which, he makes them many gracious, and exceeding great and precious promises, and particularly that of eternal life: for which purpose, it is said, that he "went out", either from his Father as Mediator, being sent by him; or from heaven into this world, by the assumption of human nature; or by his Spirit, and the influence of his grace, in the calls of his people, to their several services, in his church;

and that "early in the morning": some of them being very early called to labour there; meaning either in the morning of the world, as Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, and others; or in the morning of the Jewish church-state, as Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and the like; or in the morning of the Gospel dispensation, as the apostles of Christ, which seems most likely; or in the morning of youth, as Timothy and others.

The remainder of Gill on Matthew 20:
Matthew 20 Gill's Exposition

....
(*Gill sees 'the church' as what is defined in The Bible as The Kingdom of God. So, we see that in this last statement regarding The Old Testament 'church-state', being those who were Organized, BY THE BOOK, and assembled to do God's business and Worship..... However, I do not see this definition for 'the church' anywhere in The Bible and I see The Kingdom of God over all His Kingdom, as all the Saved.....I see the churches of The Lord Jesus Christ as singular entities Called and Placed in specific areas, throughout History. And, in that way, not 'all of the Saved' can be said to be in anything relating to the word, 'church'. A church is always an assembled, Organized, entity of called out souls, WHO GATHER and CONGREGATE. ... That would leave those who are Saved and Do Not Assemble and Serve as being in The Kingdom of God)

 

[robycop3]

God predestinates some for special service to Him, as he did Moses, Jeremiah, John The Baptist, & Jesus' disciples. Others must make the choice to come to Him. New Testament Scripture has a number of "whoever believes", NOT "whoever believes and is elect". One becomes elect by believing.

John 3:16, Romans 10:13, & 2 Peter 3:9 are some verses that maki it plain that salvation is open to all living people, & that no one is born predestinated for hell, no matter what.

God wants people who love & worship Him of their own free will, Had he wanted robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience, He could easily have made them.

 

[AustinC]

God predestinates some for special service to Him, as he did Moses, Jeremiah, John The Baptist, & Jesus' disciples. Others must make the choice to come to Him. New Testament Scripture has a number of "whoever believes", NOT "whoever believes and is elect". One becomes elect by believing.

John 3:16, Romans 10:13, & 2 Peter 3:9 are some verses that maki it plain that salvation is open to all living people, & that no one is born predestinated for hell, no matter what.

God wants people who love & worship Him of their own free will, Had he wanted robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience, He could easily have made them.

You have it backwards.
One is elected, then believes. This has been God's process from Adam onward.

You make assertions not supported in the Bible. Your three sentences do not support your claim.

 

[robycop3]

You have it backwards.
One is elected, then believes. This has been God's process from Adam onward.

You make assertions not supported in the Bible. Your three sentences do not support your claim.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

One becomes elect after believing. The Scriptures I cited prove your calvinist stuff wrong. Not one of those verses says "whoever if elect". You present no proof for your view, while I proved mine Scripturally.

 

[Dave G]

I never looked at that passage as supporting God choosing for salvation.

I’ll have to think about it

Actually, never have I.

The way I understand the parable, it's about God's ministers.
They all get the same wages, eternal life, for doing the work...no matter the hour.

I'll have to think on it as well.

 

[Dave G]

One is elected, then believes. This has been God's process from Adam onward.

I agree, Austin...
Let's see what the Scriptures state:

" And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:35-40 ).

Here I see, in verse 35, that believing on Christ is equated with "coming to Him".
To come to Christ is to believe on Him.
In addition, in verse 40, to "see" Him leads to believing on Him.

Further down in our reading we see this:

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

No man can "come to" ( believe on ) Christ, except the Father draw them.
Plus, that person who comes to Him, will be raised up at the last day.
Another unbreakable "chain".

Therefore, if anyone truly believes on Christ, then they have been "savingly drawn"...
Or, as many other passages tell us, "called".

Here's more support for "coming to" being equal to "believing on":

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

Again, we have Christ equating believing with coming to Him...
and again, we see that no man can come to ( believe on ) Christ, except it were given to that person by the Father to do so.

 

[Dave G]

what you have imagined is that God chooses before people exist.

I "imagine" it as well, although I'll have to think over Austin's view of the parable in Matthew.
So far I don't really see anything I'd disagree with.

As for your statement, Barry?
God chooses people to be placed within the body of Christ from the foundation of the world, before they ever existed:

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

That is exactly what is stated in the epistles.

 

[Van]

Wrong again. Look at the parable of the great supper:

The Parable of the Great Banquet

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”

So everyone is invited to come into the kingdom of God you see? We have to either choose to go or to stay behind. That is a CHOICE we have to make.

I think the Greek word translated as "compel" in your cited version is a mistranslation, the text should read urge or invite them to come in. Here is the NET footnote:

78tn Traditionally “force” or “compel,” but according to BDAG 60 s.v. ἀναγκάζω 2 this is a weakened nuance: “strongly urge/invite.” The meaning in this context is more like “persuade.”

 

[Dave G]

It doesn't say ' there's none that can believe the Gospel , none that can respond positively to God or the Holy Spirit .

This does:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The preaching of the cross ( the Gospel ) is foolishness to them that perish.
To us which are saved, it is the power of God.
Here is another:

" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

Here I see that preaching Christ crucified is a stumblingblock to the Jews...
It is foolishness to the "Greeks" ( Gentiles ).
But unto them which are "called" ( both Jews and Greeks ), Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Side note:
Who are the "called" and what is "calling", Barry?
That we can leave for another thread, if you like.



As I clearly see here in both of these two passages, there are two groups represented in verse 18...
"Them that perish" ( see Psalms 37:20, Psalms 73:27, Psalms 92:9 ) for the answer to who it is that will "perish" ), and
"Us which are saved".

In verses 23 and 24 there are three groups represented:

The Jews.
The Greeks ( Gentiles ).
and "them which are called" ( made up of both Jews and Greeks ).

Therefore,
"Us which are saved" = "Them which are called".


The Gospel has a select audience, Barry, and always has ( Ephesians 1:13, "...the Gospel of your salvation..." ).
It actually belongs to those who "hear" it and believe it, because it is the good news of their salvation.



Personally, I'm glad that He chose me and caused me to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 )...
Because I know full well that unless He did, I would have never seen the Gospel as anything other than foolishness, and I would have never chosen to believe it.

 

[Dave G]

God chose to save those that believe .
Chosen is ALWAYS to do or for something .

Amen, Barry.

To me, you hit the nail right on the head.
God chooses those that have believed and will believe on His Son ( His "elect", which literally means, "chosen" ), to do something and for something:

" And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." ( Psalms 50:15 )

" to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. " ( Revelation 7:9-12 ).

To praise Him for His grace, kindness and mercy to them,
Instead of being partakers in the wrath of His everlasting punishment for their offenses against Him.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of course there is no mention of Calvin in the Bible. Those passages state that God chooses, elects, adopts and predestines. You are merely propping up Calvin as an excuse to ignore what the Bible teaches.
Barry, focus, we're addressing the Bible and nothing else. You are using Calvin as a diversion and distraction to avoid the Bible. Your tactic is only being bought and accepted by yourself and anyone who wishes to deny the authority of God over ones salvation.

Yes the bible does state that God chooses , Adopts , elects and predestines . But laying aside Augustine, Calvin, Jacob Arminius, ect
When are we Adopted and predestined for ? what are we chosen for and elected to do ?
The bible says we are chosen for service , elected for service . The bible says the adoption is the redemption of the body and we are predestined to this After we believe.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Who is Israel?

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

You are squirming to avoid the truth presented in the Bible that God chooses and elects his children.

Israel .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I "imagine" it as well, although I'll have to think over Austin's view of the parable in Matthew.
So far I don't really see anything I'd disagree with.

As for your statement, Barry?
God chooses people to be placed within the body of Christ from the foundation of the world, before they ever existed?

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

That is exactly what is stated in the epistles.

your not too bright are you . Could you read romans 8.23 and tell me when the adoption is please ... Then ask when you were in Him ? remembering it doesn't say 'to be in him ' And read chosen for what ? it's not to be saved is it ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

This does:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The preaching of the cross ( the Gospel ) is foolishness to them that perish.
To us which are saved, it is the power of God.
Here is another:

" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

Here I see that preaching Christ crucified is a stumblingblock to the Jews...
It is foolishness to the "Greeks" ( Gentiles ).
But unto them which are "called" ( both Jews and Greeks ), Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Side note:
Who are the "called" and what is "calling", Barry?
That we can leave for another thread, if you like.



As I clearly see here in both of these two passages, there are two groups represented in verse 18...
"Them that perish" ( see Psalms 37:20, Psalms 73:27, Psalms 92:9 ) for the answer to who it is that will "perish" ), and
"Us which are saved".

In verses 23 and 24 there are three groups represented:

The Jews.
The Greeks ( Gentiles ).
and "them which are called" ( made up of both Jews and Greeks ).

Therefore,
"Us which are saved" = "Them which are called".


The Gospel has a select audience, Barry, and always has ( Ephesians 1:13, "...the Gospel of your salvation..." ).
It actually belongs to those who "hear" it and believe it, because it is the good news of their salvation.



Personally, I'm glad that He chose me and caused me to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 )...
Because I know full well that unless He did, I would have never seen the Gospel as anything other than foolishness, and I would have never chosen to believe it.

I thought it was foolish when I first heard , but then later I believed..it doesn't say they cannot believe because its foolish to them . But ask your self what's foolish ? The Gospel or the preaching? ( check your translation ) . Do you think it pleases God by the foolishness of the Gospel? is the death burial and resurrection foolish ? or is the preaching?