Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

[Barry Johnson]

This does:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The preaching of the cross ( the Gospel ) is foolishness to them that perish.
To us which are saved, it is the power of God.
Here is another:

" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

Here I see that preaching Christ crucified is a stumblingblock to the Jews...
It is foolishness to the "Greeks" ( Gentiles ).
But unto them which are "called" ( both Jews and Greeks ), Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Side note:
Who are the "called" and what is "calling", Barry?
That we can leave for another thread, if you like.



As I clearly see here in both of these two passages, there are two groups represented in verse 18...
"Them that perish" ( see Psalms 37:20, Psalms 73:27, Psalms 92:9 ) for the answer to who it is that will "perish" ), and
"Us which are saved".

In verses 23 and 24 there are three groups represented:

The Jews.
The Greeks ( Gentiles ).
and "them which are called" ( made up of both Jews and Greeks ).

Therefore,
"Us which are saved" = "Them which are called".


The Gospel has a select audience, Barry, and always has ( Ephesians 1:13, "...the Gospel of your salvation..." ).
It actually belongs to those who "hear" it and believe it, because it is the good news of their salvation.



Personally, I'm glad that He chose me and caused me to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 )...
Because I know full well that unless He did, I would have never seen the Gospel as anything other than foolishness, and I would have never chosen to believe it.

so no jews and gentiles can be saved? if its a blanket statement that its a stumbling block for Jews and foolisness to Greeks. According to your logic , no one can be saved ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen, Barry.

To me, you hit the nail right on the head.
God chooses those that have believed, His elect, to do something and for something:

" And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." ( Psalms 50:15 )

" to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. " ( Revelation 7:9-12 ).

To praise Him for His grace and mercy to them,
Instead of partaking in the wrath of His everlasting punishment for their offenses against Him.

No God chose that those who believed would do stuff . You've got the cart before the horse .
He did not cause the belief.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen, Barry.

To me, you hit the nail right on the head.
God chooses those that have believed and will believe on His Son ( His "elect", which literally means, "chosen" ), to do something and for something:

" And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." ( Psalms 50:15 )

" to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. " ( Revelation 7:9-12 ).

To praise Him for His grace, kindness and mercy to them,
Instead of being partakers in the wrath of His everlasting punishment for their offenses against Him.

when they looked at the serpent in the wilderness and were immediately healed . Did they heal themselves or did God cause the healing ? If you say of course after they looked it was God that healed them and saved them.Dont be so silly of course they didn't save themselves or cause the venom to stop killing them , it was God that did it " . God provided the means . Well why do you believe were saving ourselves by believing the Gospel . ? it wasn't there own will or there own ' works ' ( im pretty sure you could look on the sabbath ) that healed themselves , it was Gods power that stopped that venom from killing them after the bite . But God commanded them to look . The same can be applied to the Gospel ( just as Jesus did in John 3 ) We are commanded to believe the Gospel. Then God saves .You say ' they can't believe because of the fall ' why ? folks are believing the Quran, the book of mormon , Catholicism , the new world translation . They can't believe Gods word ? they can believe in all manner of things but they CANT respond positively to Gods revelation and the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel ? why would you believe such nonsense ? why do you speak like a Calvernist? what ' stuff ' have you absorbed along with the bible?

 

[AustinC]

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

One becomes elect after believing. The Scriptures I cited prove your calvinist stuff wrong. Not one of those verses says "whoever if elect". You present no proof for your view, while I proved mine Scripturally.

That doesn't even make sense.
By human effort and willpower to believe (doing it all yourself) you cause God to elect you.
That's utterly ridiculous.

 

[Dave G]

so no jews and gentiles can be saved? if its a blanket statement that its a stumbling block for Jews and foolisness to Greeks. According to your logic , no one can be saved ?

Please read the post again, Barry.
Both Jews and Gentiles that believe ( the called ) are saved.

He did not cause the belief.

He caused the situations that brought one to belief.

The Gospel, the new birth, etc.
Please see Titus 3:5-7 and James 1:18.

 

[Barry Johnson]

That doesn't even make sense.
By human effort and willpower to believe (doing it all yourself) you cause God to elect you.
That's utterly ridiculous.

Did they heal themselves in the wilderness after they looked at the bronze serpent? or did God cause the healing ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please read the post again, Barry.
Both Jews and Gentiles that believe ( the called ) are saved.

He caused the situations that brought one to belief.

The Gospel, the new birth, etc.
Please see Titus 3:5-7 and James 1:18.

But its a stumble to Jews and foolish to gentiles ?

 

[Dave G]

For anyone who thinks the "Calvinist" has it backwards, let's see if this helps:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

To me, this is not difficult, as the words on the page are very straightforward:
"...as many as were ordained to eternal life..."

"...believed."

Why did they believe?
Because they were ordained to eternal life, that's why.
Why do people not believe?

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Because they are not "of" Christ's sheep.
Why do people hear ( listen or pay attention to ) God's words?

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

Same principle.
One must be "of God" ( or born "of God" ) to willingly receive His words as the truth.
Otherwise, we as sinners, who are rebelling in our hearts and minds, will not receive them.

The new birth exists for a reason, my friends...
To make us new creatures in Christ, starting at the thing which causes us the most trouble from God's point of view...
The "heart":

" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." ( Matthew 15:18-20 ).

The Lord starts with our hearts, and then, when He's done, proceeds with the entire "man".
Belief does not lead to a changed heart...
The changed heart leads to the belief of His words, and the Gospel of our salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please read the post again, Barry.
Both Jews and Gentiles that believe ( the called ) are saved.

He caused the situations that brought one to belief.

The Gospel, the new birth, etc.
Please see Titus 3:5-7 and James 1:18.

Yes we are saved by regeneration and not by works of righteousness, whats your point ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

For anyone who thinks the "Calvinist" has it backwards, let's see if this helps:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

To me, this is not difficult, as the words on the page are very straightforward:
"...as many as were ordained to eternal life..."

"...believed."

Why did they believe?
Because they were ordained to eternal life, that's why.
Why do people not believe?

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Because they are not "of" Christ's sheep.
Why do people hear ( listen or pay attention to ) God's words?

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

Same principle.
One must be "of God" ( or born "of God" ) to willingly receive His words as the truth.
Otherwise, we as sinners, who are rebelling in out hearts and minds, will not receive them.

The new birth exists for a reason, my friends...
To make us new creatures in Christ, starting at the thing which causes us the most trouble from God's point of view...
The "heart":

" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." ( Matthew 15:18-20 ).

ok by your calvernistic thinking .
Acts 13 .
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
did the jews choose to not believe the Gospel ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

For anyone who thinks the "Calvinist" has it backwards, let's see if this helps:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

To me, this is not difficult, as the words on the page are very straightforward:
"...as many as were ordained to eternal life..."

"...believed."

Why did they believe?
Because they were ordained to eternal life, that's why.
Why do people not believe?

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Because they are not "of" Christ's sheep.
Why do people hear ( listen or pay attention to ) God's words?

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

Same principle.
One must be "of God" ( or born "of God" ) to willingly receive His words as the truth.
Otherwise, we as sinners, who are rebelling in our hearts and minds, will not receive them.

The new birth exists for a reason, my friends...
To make us new creatures in Christ, starting at the thing which causes us the most trouble from God's point of view...
The "heart":

" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." ( Matthew 15:18-20 ).

The Lord starts with our hearts, and then, when He's done, proceeds with the entire "man".
Belief does not lead to a changed heart...
The changed heart leads to the belief of His words, and the Gospel of our salvation.

is Jesus speaking to Gentiles in 2020 in John 10 ? why do calvernists think Jesus is speaking to them in 2020 ?

 

[Dave G]

is Jesus speaking to Gentiles in 2020 in John 10 ?

Yes.
Why don't you think that the Bible is intended for every believer, and Christ's promises in John 10 are not for the Gentile believer?

 

[Barry Johnson]

For anyone who thinks the "Calvinist" has it backwards, let's see if this helps:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

To me, this is not difficult, as the words on the page are very straightforward:
"...as many as were ordained to eternal life..."

"...believed."

Why did they believe?
Because they were ordained to eternal life, that's why.
Why do people not believe?

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Because they are not "of" Christ's sheep.
Why do people hear ( listen or pay attention to ) God's words?

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

Same principle.
One must be "of God" ( or born "of God" ) to willingly receive His words as the truth.
Otherwise, we as sinners, who are rebelling in our hearts and minds, will not receive them.

The new birth exists for a reason, my friends...
To make us new creatures in Christ, starting at the thing which causes us the most trouble from God's point of view...
The "heart":

" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." ( Matthew 15:18-20 ).

The Lord starts with our hearts, and then, when He's done, proceeds with the entire "man".
Belief does not lead to a changed heart...
The changed heart leads to the belief of His words, and the Gospel of our salvation.

Who is Jesus speaking to in John 10 and John 8 please? is it Americans ? Russians? indians ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes.
Why don't you think that the Bible is intended for every believer, and Christ's promises in John 10 are not for the Gentile believer?

Who is Jesus speaking TO ? Just check

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes.
Why don't you think that the Bible is intended for every believer, and Christ's promises in John 10 are not for the Gentile believer?

" i came for the lost sheep of America , no wait that's not right . I came for the lost sheep of the United Kingdom, no ...the lost SHEEP of the house of ISRAEL !!!!!

 

[Dave G]

did the jews choose to not believe the Gospel ?

Yes, they did.

Why?
" And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." ( Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28 ).

But there's something else stopping them, Barry:

" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 ).

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear ) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. " ( Romans 11:7-11 ).

It's called "judicious blinding", and Israel brought it upon herself.

Do you think that salvation is open and available to everyone, Barry?
Not according to the Scriptures it isn't.
Right here God chose to blind Israel, as a nation, for her willful and stubborn rebelliousness over the centuries under the first covenant.

At the end of it all, spiritually blind men cannot "see" Jesus Christ, the same as found in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and other passages.
Only those whom the Lord has graciously given "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" can and do believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and they treat God's word as the very special and trustworthy thing that it is...

The truth about Him and the truth about them and their sinful condition...
and ultimately, the truth about Jesus Christ.


I'm not sure about you, but in the light of this, I'm very grateful for His mercy and grace to me.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes.
Why don't you think that the Bible is intended for every believer, and Christ's promises in John 10 are not for the Gentile believer?

13¶And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
Gen 6 .
This is a command , why are you not obeying this ?
is this speaking to you or Noah ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, they did.

Why?
" And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." ( Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28 ).

But there's something else stopping them, Barry:

" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 ).

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. " ( Romans 11:7-11 ).

It's called "judicious blinding", and Israel brought it upon herself.

Do you think that salvation is open and available to everyone, Barry?
Not according to the Scriptures it isn't.

Right here God chose to blind Israel, as a nation, for her willful and stubborn rebelliousness over the centuries under the first covenant.

And likewise the Gentiles also in Acts 13 did not refuse the Gospel, they took upon themselves to hear and believe and were saved . Can you show me were it says God appointed or ordained anyone please in Acts 13 ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, they did.

Why?
" And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." ( Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28 ).

But there's something else stopping them, Barry:

" But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ( John 12:37-40 ).

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. " ( Romans 11:7-11 ).

It's called "judicious blinding", and Israel brought it upon herself.

Do you think that salvation is open and available to everyone, Barry?
Not according to the Scriptures it isn't.

Right here God chose to blind Israel, as a nation, for her willful and stubborn rebelliousness over the centuries under the first covenant.
At the end of it all, spiritually blind men cannot "see" Jesus Christ, the same as found in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and other passages.


I'm not sure about you, but in the light of this, I'm very grateful for His grace to me.

Whos " this people " in the above passage you mentioned ? Americans in 2020 ?
Acts 28 .
26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
whos ' this people ' ??

 

[Dave G]

what ' stuff ' have you absorbed along with the bible?

Nothing but the Bible, Barry.

In fact, I'd never even heard of John Calvin or Augustine of Hippo before I saw the facts of God's choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) in the Bible for myself.

Can you show me were it says God appointed or ordained anyone please in Acts 13 ?

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

"..as many as were ordained to eternal life..."


May God bless you, Barry.
I'm going to make this my final reply to you in this thread.

I'm all typed out.
Have a good evening.