Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

[Barry Johnson]

The point is that those described in that verse as “blinded” cannot freely choose, can they? So your statement that EVERYONE can freely choose is contradicted by the Word of God.

That was the point.
Your question is irrelevant.

Are you saying that the reason all the non elect ( calvinist version of election that is ) cannot believe the Gospel because Satan has blinded them ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's my experience that your hive is not found in an historical church.
You have multiple people here who have read the Bible and in reading, found that others throughout all of Christianity understand the same thing. But, you reject it all. That places you in a very precarious place. That should bring up red flags for you, but you, so far, ignore them.

Ahh the ' historical Church ' yes they are to be studied . Along side infant baptism , transubstantiation, and many other questionable ideas. So its better to rely on the scriptures alone.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's my experience that your hive is not found in an historical church.
You have multiple people here who have read the Bible and in reading, found that others throughout all of Christianity understand the same thing. But, you reject it all. That places you in a very precarious place. That should bring up red flags for you, but you, so far, ignore them.

I also have studied this , hence my opinions on Calvinism and Arminism . I believe if folks studied Augustine , Calvin Jabob Aminius ect they would see where its all coming from . Thats how I came away ( escaped ) from the deception of Calvinism .

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's my experience that your hive is not found in an historical church.
You have multiple people here who have read the Bible and in reading, found that others throughout all of Christianity understand the same thing. But, you reject it all. That places you in a very precarious place. That should bring up red flags for you, but you, so far, ignore them.

The hive im referring to is the same one Jabob Arminius found himself trying to think his way out of under Beza. Calvs ironically argue with Armins not realising its essentially the same. The Argument is because its essentially the same , but with the idea that Armins have apostasised in a sense from the fold . in the same way Luther never fully leaves Catholicism ( not enough ) . Meanwhile Christianity is getting along just fine outside of Calminism .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The point is that those described in that verse as “blinded” cannot freely choose, can they? So your statement that EVERYONE can freely choose is contradicted by the Word of God.

That was the point.
Your question is irrelevant.

They choose to give themselves over to Satan's devices which blinds them.

 

[George Antonios]

The adoption has already happened, but we do not yet have our glorified bodies. That will come later. It's right in the text.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[AustinC]

Ahh the ' historical Church ' yes they are to be studied . Along side infant baptism , transubstantiation, and many other questionable ideas. So its better to rely on the scriptures alone.

Indeed, Sola Scriptura, but not sola churchola. [emoji41]

 

[AustinC]

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

George, look what comes first and thus explains your verses:

Romans 8:14-16
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

Notice, this is all present tense, not future tense regarding our adoption.
The adoption is finalized, now in the present, but the receiving of our new bodies is future. It is then that this adopted child will be brought into the presence of his Father. Until then I, and all creation, groan with anticipation.

 

[George Antonios]

Concerning the verses you quoted, first, let's see what the words of God actually are:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Notice, this is all present tense, not future tense regarding our adoption.
The adoption is finalized, now in the present, but the receiving of our new bodies is future. I

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

You are confounding, brother, the Spirit of adoption, which have already received (Rom.8:15), with the actual adoption, for which we wait yet (Rom.8:23-25). the Spirit of adoption is God's down-payment [earnest] of the yet-future adoption. Paul specifically lays that out in Ephesians:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [matching Romans 8:23], unto the praise of his glory.

Predestination, in literally every occurrence of the word, is that of a believer unto the adoption of his body at the resurrection.

 

[George Antonios]

The adoption is finalized, now in the present, but the receiving of our new bodies is future.

The adoption IS the receiving of our new body.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, TO WIT, the redemption of our body.

 

[atpollard]

Are you saying that the reason all the non elect ( calvinist version of election that is ) cannot believe the Gospel because Satan has blinded them ?

No. I said what I am saying. Your belief that EVERYONE can choose is contradicted by “God breathed” Scripture. Why does that not concern you?

 

[atpollard]

They choose to give themselves over to Satan's devices which blinds them.

That is not what the verse that I quoted says.
Could you please point out where the Bible teaches this?

 

[Salty]

SIX HOUR WARNING

This thread will be closed no sooner than 630 am (EDT) 26 Jul, / 330 am (PDT)

 

[AustinC]

Of course, God chooses. If God didn't choose, he would not be God, he would be a servant of man.

 

[Sai]

SIX HOUR WARNING

This thread will be closed no sooner than 630 am (EDT) 26 Jul, / 330 am (PDT)

See what you did Barry? Smh.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Indeed, Sola Scriptura, but not sola churchola.

A system by

That is not what the verse that I quoted says.
Could you please point out where the Bible teaches this?

12¶Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No. I said what I am saying. Your belief that EVERYONE can choose is contradicted by “God breathed” Scripture. Why does that not concern you?

Your still avoiding why is Satan blinding if they are already born blind ..isnt this like putting blindfolds on corpses ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

No. I said what I am saying. Your belief that EVERYONE can choose is contradicted by “God breathed” Scripture. Why does that not concern you?

If we are born completely unable to see, hear, understand or respond willingly to the word of God, as the doctrine of Total Inability suggests, wouldn’t Satan’s work to blind people and snatch away the word be completely unnecessary and redundant?

Imagine visiting your local cemetery and discovering they hired a person to put blind folds and ear plugs on the corpses lest they respond willingly to the sights and sounds around the graveyard. Would this strike you as peculiar?

 

[robycop3]

2 Peter 3:9 does not refute

• man’s (T)otal inability to choose God
• that salvation is not based human merit (U)
• that Jesus died for His sheep (L)
• that God draws whom He pleases without needing anyone’s permission (I)
• that Jesus will lose none of those that the Father has given Him, but will raise them all on the Last Day.

Your claim was that there was not one single verse supporting “Calvinism”, so I offered one verse. Rather than deal with the fact that there IS at least one verse that supports part of Calvinism, you offer “scripture pong” to prove that the Bible does not say what it says. You have not proven your claim with your verse and you have not refuted the existence of “a single verse” supporting Calvinism.

So your unfounded opinion stands refuted.
Calvinism may be wrong, but there are verses that support it.

The several "whoevers" in NT Scripture proves total predestination for all wrong. My own experience also does, to me. There's not one "whoever if elect" in the whole Bible.

There are some Christians who can truthfully say, "God reached out & grabbed me", but most Christians will truthfully say they came to Him.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread wi8ll be closed sometime after 9:25 AM Pacific.