Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[AustinC]

We choose to respond to the Gospel. There is no need for pre or irresistible grace as we did not lose the ability to respond positively to Gods revalation.

No need for grace? Well then, in that case there would also be no need for Jesus to atone for our sins. We could simply work to save ourselves.

 

[AustinC]

And I'll answer you with a question. Why would you believe God forces Himself or His Holy Spirit to nudge/force someone enough to choose Him without making God seem like an abusive/controlling dictator?

Opinions/views change. I do not believe upon what I said before as I was misled into believing the holy spirit acts in that way. The Holy Spirit convicts an unsaved person, and it doesn't matter how many times He convicts us, the person still has to make the decision to decide.

Why would God, choosing to free you and ransom you from your slavery to sin and Satan be an abusive/controlling dictator by choosing to free you? I cannot imagine how you draw such a nonsensical conclusion so please explain this to me.

 

[AustinC]

Wrong, I corrected a former belief that I realized was wrong and against scripture. And let me ask you this Yeshua? Did God make you post that unnecessary comment or did you and your non-existent free-will (according to you) have you to make this comment?

God allowed and ordained that Yeshua would post, as God did with your post and mine. If God willed to stop you, he would...and you could do nothing about it.
Yeshua is not wrong. Had God not chose you to believe, you would still be in rebellion.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No need for grace? Well then, in that case there would also be no need for Jesus to atone for our sins. We could simply work to save ourselves.

Look at Ephesians 2 .8
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Thats grace right there ,clear as day .
we don't need to add pre or irresistible to it . The bible works without the isms.

 

[Yeshua1]

No need for grace? Well then, in that case there would also be no need for Jesus to atone for our sins. We could simply work to save ourselves.

he seems to deny that we even need to have the Holy Spirit do anything to us in order for us to get saved!

 

[Barry Johnson]

he seems to deny that we even need to have the Holy Spirit do anything to us in order for us to get saved!

Can you show me a verse where the Holy Spirit does anything the Calvernist claims ? The Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD of sin ( not random sins but unbelief) righteousness and judgement .
And the Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation.
Not to mention what leaves everyone without excuse . Creation and conscience .
After the cross you dont have a verse that the Father is drawing anyone .
Jesus is the light .

 

[AustinC]

Look at Ephesians 2 .8
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Thats grace right there ,clear as day .
we don't need to add pre or irresistible to it . The bible works without the isms.

"that not of yourselves", yep, right there, no human choice...all God.

Thanks for sharing verses that express God choosing and man doing nothing to attain salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

"that not of yourselves", yep, right there, no human choice...all God.

Thanks for sharing verses that express God choosing and man doing nothing to attain salvation.

You missed out 'through faith ' .And
rom 5.2
By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Miss E]

Why would God, choosing to free you and ransom you from your slavery to sin and Satan be an abusive/controlling dictator by choosing to free you? I cannot imagine how you draw such a nonsensical conclusion so please explain this to me.

How can you not see that that paints God in that way??

A God that literlaly FORCES HIS WILL UPON YOU THUS MAKING YOU A MINDLESS VOODOO DOLL HE CONTROLS FULLY, is not a God deserving of Worship. We have to make the conscious choice to worship/trust/follow God. That is why He gave every man a free will to do so. You call it being chosen, I call it being forced. Either way you roll it up, it's God making you do something against your will that you have ZERO control over.

Explain to me why that makes God and Just and Fair God.

Man choose to love sin, or to love God. Simple as that. God rewards salvation based on our choice. Period.

 

[Miss E]

God allowed and ordained that Yeshua would post, as God did with your post and mine. If God willed to stop you, he would...and you could do nothing about it.
Yeshua is not wrong. Had God not chose you to believe, you would still be in rebellion.

Do you HEAR YOURSELF? You're basically saying God controls all your actions!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that RIGHT in ANY SENSE OF THE WORD.

That's like saying my husband allows me to speak and otherwise I would never speak on my own free will???? That is not love. That is a dictator.

 

[Miss E]

Tell me, when we go to heaven, apart from no longer having the ability to sin, will God force us to worship Him or will we freely give Him worship because it will be our desire to since we first chose to love and follow God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you HEAR YOURSELF? You're basically saying God controls all your actions!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that RIGHT in ANY SENSE OF THE WORD.

That's like saying my husband allows me to speak and otherwise I would never speak on my own free will???? That is not love. That is a dictator.

None apart from the will and working of God will ever come to saving faith in Lord Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you show me a verse where the Holy Spirit does anything the Calvernist claims ? The Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD of sin ( not random sins but unbelief) righteousness and judgement .
And the Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation.
Not to mention what leaves everyone without excuse . Creation and conscience .
After the cross you dont have a verse that the Father is drawing anyone .
Jesus is the light .

Again, how can those lost in sins, enemies of God, and wayward decide now to come back to the God they have despised until n ow?

 

[Miss E]

None apart from the will and working of God will ever come to saving faith in Lord Jesus!

AKA God chooses what happens to you, against your will, like a dictator.

But you don't say it that way, do you?

Let me ask you something else, when we sin, is that God willing us to sin? Or do we sin on our own?

And likewise, if we do a good act, is that God making us do the act? Or us ourselves doing the act of kindness?

Either way, God gets the glory because as the Bible says, all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose. In God's divine sovereignty, He can make all things work together for our good despite the actions we may make against or aligning to His will.

Note the words, 'who love God'.

 

[Miss E]

Again, how can those lost in sins, enemies of God, and wayward decide now to come back to the God they have despised until n ow?

Let me ask you this question

The prodigal son. When he went his own way, that is, lost in his own sin and selfhness. What made him decide to go back to his father?

Guilt.

When someone feels the guilt of their sin and realize they are a sinner before almighty God and do not deserve to live, and decide to trust in Jesus as their Lord and give up their lives, THAT is when a person is saved.

Did the prodigal son make that choice to come back on his own via God forcing him to go back to his father?

NO.

So it is with lost sinners, who eventually find the light of Jesus and decide to repent and come to Him.

Glory to God!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me ask you this question

The prodigal son. When he went his own way, that is, lost in his own sin and selfhness. What made him decide to go back to his father?

Guilt.

When someone feels the guilt of their sin and realize they are a sinner before almighty God and do not deserve to live, and decide to trust in Jesus as their Lord and give up their lives, THAT is when a person is saved.

Did the prodigal son make that choice to come back on his own via God forcing him to go back to his father?

NO.

So it is with lost sinners, who eventually find the light of Jesus and decide to repent and come to Him.

Glory to God!!!

he was always the son of the father, so was saved and lost and found again!

 

[Yeshua1]

AKA God chooses what happens to you, against your will, like a dictator.

But you don't say it that way, do you?

Let me ask you something else, when we sin, is that God willing us to sin? Or do we sin on our own?

And likewise, if we do a good act, is that God making us do the act? Or us ourselves doing the act of kindness?

Either way, God gets the glory because as the Bible says, all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose. In God's divine sovereignty, He can make all things work together for our good despite the actions we may make against or aligning to His will.

Note the words, 'who love God'.

Can God do anything that he chooses to do then? Did paul have real free will to tell Jesus no thanks?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again, how can those lost in sins, enemies of God, and wayward decide now to come back to the God they have despised until n ow?

The same way a alcoholic or drug addict can realise he needs help .

 

[Yeshua1]

The same way a alcoholic or drug addict can realise he needs help .

Different though, as they can choose to get help even if not saved!

 

[AustinC]

You missed out 'through faith ' .And
rom 5.2
By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith is a gift given to those he chooses to save by grace. It is not of ourselves so that we cannot boast.
God chooses, by his gracious favor, to save us. He gives us the gift of faith. We therefore believe and because of this, we do the works God ordained us to do.
Read all of Ephesians 2:1-10 so you see the entire progression of what God does, with no assistance from us.