Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
They can choose to respond positively , that's my point .
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Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Even John Calvin understood that 'Faith in eph 2 ,8 is NOT the Gift . Clearly salvation is the Gift
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yes . Acts 26.19
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
How does God, who sees you imprisoned and enslaved in sin, and chooses, by His gracious favor, to save and redeem you out of your bondage thus end up "making you a mindless voodoo doll that he controls fully" when he chose to free you?
Honestly, answer this question. It boggles my mind that you think God is evil and wicked by choosing to save you.
What slave ever turned to Harriet Tubman and said "you are making me a mindless voodoo doll that fully controls me" by saving me out of slavery? But... that's what you are screaming out against God when you hate him for choosing to be gracious to you and save you.
I cannot wrap my mind around how twisted your position is before the Sovereign King who graciously saved you. You speak like Job's wife in this matter. Someday you will be ashamed of what you proclaim here.
I hear myself. I am saying that the Creator of the universe knows how many hairs are on our heads and he has his entire creation in the palm of his hand. He directs all his Creation down to the most minute detail so that even the wicked actions of men can only happen by his choice to allow them to act in accordance with their wickedness.
Yes, I very gladly proclaim that God is absolutely Sovereign in everything He created. I am not appalled by my faith in God's Sovereign control.
Yet, you show your hatred for a God who is all powerful and Lord over all creation. I cannot fathom your scorning the King of Kings as you do, just because you have this silly imagination that his choosing to save you out of slavery somehow makes you a voodoo doll. What an utterly bizarre thought you display. I stand directly opposed to you and I make no apology.
He doesn't force you to worship him now. You still display amazing rebellion against His authority. It is only God's grace that keeps you from falling into the pit of hell. You are like a spider dangling over the flames by a thread. God has chosen to catch you when the cord is cut and you scream at him and call him horrific names while he spares your life. Indeed, we all dangle, just like you, and we are spared by God's gracious choice. It's just that some of us are amazed by His gracious favor while you spew hatred at God because you demand you choose to save yourself or else.
Your view is anathema to me.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
is the word sovereign in the bible ?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
What if God is angry at the fact that some will not believe the Authority of His word ? If it pleases God to save those that believe the Gospel ,isnt it obvious He is not pleased with those that deny this ?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
What's wrong with the way the Greek scholars have translated into English? Is there a better English version im missing?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
which verse ?
It would be a redundancy the manner in which you speak something no NT writer would have done
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Ok, I’ll answer you first. Then you can answer my question, I hope.
Enabling a spiritual dead person to understand the gospel and respond with faith in Jesus demonstrates the love of God. Our response to God’s intervention is necessary and real, but not “forced”. It is the natural response to a supernatural intervention by God to bring us to salvation. I understand you disagree and think my position “false”, so let me make my point and ask you a question.
Changing terminology from “nudging” to “convicting” doesn’t help your position at all. You still acknowledge the clear biblical truth that salvation is impossible unless God Holy Spirit intervenes.
Let’s use your new, and more biblically appropriate, terminology of “conviction”. You still have God Holy Spirit choosing who is saved. Let me show you why.
You have previously acknowledged that God is all powerful, which is another clear biblical truth.He is able, should He desire, to bring any and every person under such a powerful conviction, that all would be saved. We can also assume that God has not chosen to use that convicting power on every person.
Let’s say, for arguments sake, that we can rate “conviction” on a scale of 1-10. One is mild discomfort and ten is irresistible. Let’s also say Holy Spirit convicts every person on the planet with the same amount of “conviction”, level 5.
Since God Holy Spirit knows what level of “conviction” each person needs to come to Christ, Holy Spirit would be intentionally passing over every person that needed level 6 “conviction” or higher.
Do you see what I mean?
peace to you
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I once believed as you do.
My question for you is, do you know of any Scriptures that declare this "stand-offish" God to us as believers, or is this something that you were taught by a church or pastor?
I only ask this, because that is exactly what I was taught from the age of 12, when I first believed on Christ.
That's the problem, sister.
He did allow us, as a race, to choose whether or not to obey Him.
Look what a spectacular job we've done.
I agree, we as men do need help if we're ever going to be reconciled to God.
The problem is, not a single on of us, according to God's word, is willing to admit that we need that help outside of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.
We will refuse the life raft, because we'd rather drown than give up our precious sin ( Romans 1:31, John 3:19-20 ).
In other words, given the chance to repent, which is every day we live on this earth...
Not one person would ever lift a finger to even come close to desiring a genuine relationship with the living God.
Scripture please.
I'd like to see where you are getting this idea, out of God's word, that:
1) Salvation is an "offer", and
2) Man is anything other than totally bankrupt in our feelings towards Him.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
It not only tries to take it away, but seeks to take the act of saving someone out of God's hands and attempts to put it squarely in man's hands.
How?
By making salvation rely on something that we do, in addition to what God does.
In my opinion, this view has two problems...
1) God's word says that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
But if one has to do something to get the gift, then we've just turned the gift into a reward for doing whatever was required to get it.
What that does is turn the grace of God into something that can be purchased by giving Him what is required...
Our belief on His Son.
2) It pollutes God's grace by introducing our efforts ( faith, belief, etc ) into the equation...
Not as necessary evidences, but as determining factors.
In other words, if God is satisfied with one person's efforts at believing, but is not satisfied with the other's, then He saves based on what we do...
That makes the Lord a respecter of persons in that He respects one person's efforts, and not the other's.
He rewards one person's actions, and penalizes the other's.
In the end, instead of standing on strictly His mercy and grace, we then have something else we can stand on...
Our own "wise choice".
The Bible certainly does tell us that God is kind and merciful ...
But that kindness and mercy have a context:
" And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 ).
" Like as a father pitieth [his] children, [so] the LORD pitieth them that fear him." ( Psalms 103:13 ).
" The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." ( Psalms 145:20 ).
Contrary to popular belief, God does not love everyone:
Psalms 5:5.
Psalms 11:5.
many more.
God's word tells us that being born of God is not of blood ( inheritance ), nor of the will of the flesh ( our own will ), nor is it of the will of men ( other people's will )....John 1:13.
It also tells us that He "begat" us of His own will with the word of truth...
Our will has nothing to do with it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, let's look at 2 Peter 3:9...
" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Questions:
Who are the "usward" from the text?
Can we identify who they are without being told...or do we need more information without assuming who they are?
I don't know about you, but unless someone tells me who they are, I cannot, for sure, know who they are.
So, I widen the text a bit to see who is being spoken about here...
" but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:7-10 ).
Now, based on the context, who are the "us-ward", the "any" and the "all"?
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No, we will desire to freely worship Him because He chose to demonstrate His love for us, He chose us, he brought us to salvation by power of Holy Spirit.
peace to you
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