Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[Marooncat79]

Noone has denied what you are saying here. I was only dealing w the part of the text pertinent.

Why did you start there? Why not Romans 1:1?

All scripture is inspired and equally so

You seemingly have no understanding at how to interpret scripture. At least, I have not seen that ability in your posts

 

[Yeshua1]

Even John Calvin understood that 'Faith in eph 2 ,8 is NOT the Gift . Clearly salvation is the Gift

The probem is that the Greek text ties both salvation and faith as being both gifts of God towards us!

 

[Barry Johnson]

The probem is that the Greek text ties both salvation and faith as being both gifts of God towards us!

of course if your trying to find verses to say regeneration precedes faith then this to be expected .

 

[Miss E]

he was always the son of the father, so was saved and lost and found again!

oh now you're just making things up out of thin air.

 

[Miss E]

Can God do anything that he chooses to do then? Did paul have real free will to tell Jesus no thanks?

yeup. He did

 

[Miss E]

How does God, who sees you imprisoned and enslaved in sin, and chooses, by His gracious favor, to save and redeem you out of your bondage thus end up "making you a mindless voodoo doll that he controls fully" when he chose to free you?

Honestly, answer this question. It boggles my mind that you think God is evil and wicked by choosing to save you.
What slave ever turned to Harriet Tubman and said "you are making me a mindless voodoo doll that fully controls me" by saving me out of slavery? But... that's what you are screaming out against God when you hate him for choosing to be gracious to you and save you.

I cannot wrap my mind around how twisted your position is before the Sovereign King who graciously saved you. You speak like Job's wife in this matter. Someday you will be ashamed of what you proclaim here.

I can't see how you continue to view God in this way. By saying God CHOSE YOU, is the same thing as saying God MADE YOU CHOOSE SALVATION/TO BE SAVED. Ridiculous! That isn't genuine love, genuine love is willingly choosing to give love to someone else.

So you're saying that God chooses some and doesn't choose others, why did he not choose to save the others? What standard does God use to choose someone? Based on what? Their works? Nope. We know we can't do enough good to out weigh the bad. So what? Based on our CHOICE. Other-wise, God makes us do something. if your position were true, God would choose to save everyone, but that can't happen because God is a just and righteous God. He gives man the chance to choose righteousness (to follow His son) or wickedness (to follow themselves)

Please use scripture to back up your claims and I will try my best in God's strength and wisdom to show you that God gives us a choice.

 

[Yeshua1]

oh now you're just making things up out of thin air.

No, just saying that the lost son was not a sinner who needed to get saved, but an example of one saved who got into the world!

 

[Yeshua1]

yeup. He did

Did any of the prophets, who God called from the womb to serve Him then?

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't see how you continue to view God in this way. By saying God CHOSE YOU, is the same thing as saying God MADE YOU CHOOSE SALVATION/TO BE SAVED. Ridiculous! That isn't genuine love, genuine love is willingly choosing to give love to someone else.

So you're saying that God chooses some and doesn't choose others, why did he not choose to save the others? What standard does God use to choose someone? Based on what? Their works? Nope. We know we can't do enough good to out weigh the bad. So what? Based on our CHOICE. Other-wise, God makes us do something. if your position were true, God would choose to save everyone, but that can't happen because God is a just and righteous God. He gives man the chance to choose righteousness (to follow His son) or wickedness (to follow themselves)

Please use scripture to back up your claims and I will try my best in God's strength and wisdom to show you that God gives us a choice.

God is the One who makes the final choice in who gets saved in the end!

 

[Miss E]

I hear myself. I am saying that the Creator of the universe knows how many hairs are on our heads and he has his entire creation in the palm of his hand. He directs all his Creation down to the most minute detail so that even the wicked actions of men can only happen by his choice to allow them to act in accordance with their wickedness.
Yes, I very gladly proclaim that God is absolutely Sovereign in everything He created. I am not appalled by my faith in God's Sovereign control.
Yet, you show your hatred for a God who is all powerful and Lord over all creation. I cannot fathom your scorning the King of Kings as you do, just because you have this silly imagination that his choosing to save you out of slavery somehow makes you a voodoo doll. What an utterly bizarre thought you display. I stand directly opposed to you and I make no apology.

No, I do not show hatred toward a God who is powerful and over all the universe. I do not choose to believe in a God who forces his creation to love him. Choosing = Forcing. Plain and simple, you just like to dress up your view to make it sound less wicked than it actually is. Why would you worship a God who forces you to do so? I willingly choose to worship and follow God, so what you're saying is that you were chosen to Worship Him and in thus God made you follow Him and you had NOTHING to do with whether your heart/soul/mind desires you to worship/love God?

Because that is what your view promotes.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I do not show hatred toward a God who is powerful and over all the universe. I do not choose to believe in a God who forces his creation to love him. Choosing = Forcing. Plain and simple, you just like to dress up your view to make it sound less wicked than it actually is. Why would you worship a God who forces you to do so? I willingly choose to worship and follow God, so what you're saying is that you were chosen to Worship Him and in thus God made you follow Him and you had NOTHING to do with whether your heart/soul/mind desires you to worship/love God?

Because that is what your view promotes.

God enables the lost sinner to even be able to love and trust Jesus to save them, is that not love?

 

[Miss E]

Ok, I’ll answer you first. Then you can answer my question, I hope.

Enabling a spiritual dead person to understand the gospel and respond with faith in Jesus demonstrates the love of God. Our response to God’s intervention is necessary and real, but not “forced”. It is the natural response to a supernatural intervention by God to bring us to salvation. I understand you disagree and think my position “false”, so let me make my point and ask you a question.

Changing terminology from “nudging” to “convicting” doesn’t help your position at all. You still acknowledge the clear biblical truth that salvation is impossible unless God Holy Spirit intervenes.

Let’s use your new, and more biblically appropriate, terminology of “conviction”. You still have God Holy Spirit choosing who is saved. Let me show you why.

You have previously acknowledged that God is all powerful, which is another clear biblical truth.He is able, should He desire, to bring any and every person under such a powerful conviction, that all would be saved. We can also assume that God has not chosen to use that convicting power on every person.

Let’s say, for arguments sake, that we can rate “conviction” on a scale of 1-10. One is mild discomfort and ten is irresistible. Let’s also say Holy Spirit convicts every person on the planet with the same amount of “conviction”, level 5.

Since God Holy Spirit knows what level of “conviction” each person needs to come to Christ, Holy Spirit would be intentionally passing over every person that needed level 6 “conviction” or higher.

Do you see what I mean?

peace to you

The way you speak of the Holy Spirit is questioning. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, and the man or woman has a chance to acknowledge their sin and repent and believe the Gospel or not. Plain as that!

So you still deny that God isn't forcing you to believe upon Him by giving just enough 'nudge' to this person over that to make them believe? I don't understand how you can't see that your view makes God out to be a God that forces certain people to love Him over others. If that were the case, why doesn't God just force everyone to love Him? And if God could FORCE someone to love Him, what was Jesus' death on the cross for? If he could just come in and force you to worship Him? Hum?

Give me scriptural support next time. I'll be waiting.

 

[Miss E]

Which is the very definition of a works based salvation.

peace to you

Wrong. Works salvation is a man/woman doing enough good to out-weight the bad (which is impossible). One choice a man/woman makes through faith to believe the Gospel is NOT a work. You're saying faith in Jesus is a work now which is blasphemy to me.

 

[Miss E]

1) God's word says that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
But if one has to do something to get the gift, then we've just turned the gift into a reward for doing whatever was required to get it.

We're not doing anything (works wise) to GET the gift. We're responding to the gift in faith.

Now let me show you some scripture, 6 times a man's faith is counted to him as righteousness.


Romans 4:9; Romans 4:22; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23; Genesis 15:6; Titus 3:8

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

 

[Miss E]

2) It pollutes God's grace by introducing our efforts ( faith, belief, etc ) into the equation...
Not as necessary evidences, but as determining factors.

Effort denotes a work. Faith is NOT a work. Refer to post above this one.

 

[Miss E]

" And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 ).

" The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." ( Psalms 145:20 ).

Exactly. God is responding to Moses' great faith. It is only after Moses has had faith in God that God says He has found grace in His sight, and of course He knows His name. God know everyone's names, but He only chooses to acknowledge those and hear those who have faith in Jesus.

And yes, again, God will be gracious to whom he will be gracious on the basis of which man has faith in Him.

You're just providing scripture that supports my view. Thanks for that. Saves me the trouble. So yes, the Lord preserves those that LOVE HIM. (that is, who choose to have faith in Him) and of course he will destroy the wicked for they chose not to believe upon Him.

 

[Miss E]

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is that a trick question? The Us-Ward and the all/any is referring to all men. He doesn't wish anyone to die, but will only save those who put their faith and trust in Him.

 

[Miss E]

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

Yet again, here we are. Your scripture supporting my view. Yes I agree Jesus/God knew who would choose Him. He is all knowing. (duh).

And of course no one can come to Jesus until after God accepts that person whom comes to Him in faith.

Matthew 11:28
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 5:40
Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

Jesus is calling every man/woman to repentance and belief in Him. Man has to respond to that call.

 

[Miss E]

I think you might be starting to see it, sister.

"The called" according to HIS purpose.
They are the ones who love Him...

Not the ones who are not the called according to His purpose.

You are taking it out of context and basic logical reasoning. God calls every man to repent/come to saving knowledge of Jesus, and that is what he is meaning when he says 'called'. Once a man decides to answer that call, men are desiring to do His will and God has a plan for each one of His saved saints.

Take a look at this excerpt from a wise article:

In ref to Romans 8:28:

Crucially, though, this promise is limited to "those who love God," and "those who are called according to His purpose." In short, that means the promise is for Christians: for saved believers, who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ (John 3:16–18; 14:6; Romans 3:26). No matter our feelings on a given day, loving God is part of what it means to live in Christ. That's who we are. Each of us is also called to fulfill God's purposes.

In other words, this verse cannot rightly be applied to non-Christians. Those who reject God do not express their love for God by coming to Him through faith in Jesus. For those who die without Christ, things will not have worked out for the better; they will have rejected the opportunity to take advantage of this promise (John 3:36).

What is the promise? That, for those who are saved, all things will indeed work together for good. "All things" should be taken to mean each and every circumstance one might experience, even pain or suffering. "Work," or "work together," must be understood in light of God taking action in the world. He is the one who causes all things to work together or, perhaps, works in and through all circumstances toward a specific end. What is that end? "Good."

 

[Miss E]

I think you should stick to God's word, and forget the articles.

That's foolish when the articles themselves talk about God's word and reference it