Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[Miss E]

Ephesians 1:4-13.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

IN WHOM YE TRUSTED, AFTER HEARING WORD OF TRUTH, AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED.

How can you say we were predestined when right afterward Paul says we trusted after hearing the Gospel and after we believed? That denotes an action that one had to first believe before being saved. Yes, God knew our choice beforehand, but man chooses to believe or not.

 

[Miss E]

May I suggest something?

Fall on it, and not your pastor's explanation of it.

Sir, I believed as you did once about predestination, and I was convinced a long while, but then I saw the truth through MY OWN STUDYING OF THE WORD. Stop judging what you think I have done and judge me based on what I say myself. Thanks

 

[Miss E]

Do you love His Son, His word, His people and seek to obey Him in everything?

Yes, I love His son and trust His word and follow Him as my Lord. That is all a choice I had to make on my own after God revealed His word to me. I had to make that choice. As you did. As every saved man/woman has done in all of history.

 

[Miss E]

ree will? God said: Genesis 2:v.16-17 - And the Lord God COMMANDED the man (imperative mode), saying, ... from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: - Question: Where is the free will in this God's imperative command? And the man was warned by God of the consequences if His command did not be obeyed, saying to the man: ...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Do not forget: The Word is God.

Also about the "choice to choose to follow/worship God or not", you need to re-study the subject, first because there is not free will, this is an invention of man deceived by the Devil, and on the other hand, JESUS said : John 15:v.16-17 - 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I COMMAND you, that ye love one another.

Okay, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit, did He then make Adam and Eve sin? No, they had a free will choice to choose, and they did, wrongly, and now we have sinful natures, but we still have the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, who then grants us the Holy Spirit to be able to resist sin and follow Him in holiness.

And I've talked about that verse before in John. Jesus was talking directly to His diciples and he was talking about choosing them to start the first Christian church, not that he chose them to be saved.

 

[canadyjd]

Wrong. Works salvation is a man/woman doing enough good to out-weight the bad (which is impossible). One choice a man/woman makes through faith to believe the Gospel is NOT a work. You're saying faith in Jesus is a work now which is blasphemy to me.

You stated God “rewards” us with salvation when we chose to believe.

If God responds to what man does in granting salvation, that is works.

If woman responds to what God has done in her life with faith in Jesus, that is grace.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I love His son and trust His word and follow Him as my Lord. That is all a choice I had to make on my own after God revealed His word to me. I had to make that choice. As you did. As every saved man/woman has done in all of history.

You admit God intervened in your life. He “revealed His word” to you.

What made you so different that God chose to reveal His word to you when billions of people live and die without God revealing His word to them?

What made you so special?

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit, did He then make Adam and Eve sin? No, they had a free will choice to choose, and they did, wrongly, and now we have sinful natures, but we still have the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, who then grants us the Holy Spirit to be able to resist sin and follow Him in holiness.

And I've talked about that verse before in John. Jesus was talking directly to His diciples and he was talking about choosing them to start the first Christian church, not that he chose them to be saved.

Do you see any difference in us as to able to choose before and after the fall?

 

[Miss E]

Was the pagan Abraham seeking God or did God miraculously reveal Himself to and call Abraham to be His son?

What about the Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road? Did God ask Paul if he wanted to be saved, or did God bring forth a new heart resulting in salvation?

My last comment

Romans 10:14 how cal they call on whom they have not believed means that before we can call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, we have to have believed upon Him with our hearts

As Paul Harvey would say

Good Day

Right, God revealed Himself to people as He does every day now through missionaries and people picking up and reading a bible, and then we respond in saving Faith.

 

[Miss E]

You admit God intervened in your life. He “revealed His word” to you.

What made you so different that God chose to reveal His word to you when billions of people live and die without God revealing His word to them?

What made you so special?

peace to you

People know there is a God based on creation itself, so man is without an excuse. He reveals Himself to everyone and all have a chance to reject sin and trust in God. But man loves sin more than God and very man choose not to make them their Lord.

 

[Miss E]

Do you see any difference in us as to able to choose before and after the fall?

I don't understand the question. What do you mean? Either way, man chooses, that's the whole point. God doesn't FORCE us.

 

[Miss E]

Noone has denied what you are saying here. I was only dealing w the part of the text pertinent.

Why did you start there? Why not Romans 1:1?

All scripture is inspired and equally so

You seemingly have no understanding at how to interpret scripture. At least, I have not seen that ability in your posts

Throwing comments like that is unloving. I interpret scripture with scripture and as I said, if God chose who to save and it takes our own personal choices to be saved, by believing in faith after hearing the Gospel, then the Bible contradicts itself, only one reality has to be true. And the reality is is that God lets us choose, while still maintaining all power and authority. He makes all things possible and work for the good of those who love Him based on man's choice. That is only one of many mysteries of God.

 

[Miss E]

Did any of the prophets, who God called from the womb to serve Him then?

Prophets had God come to them in dreams or by His voice, they could have reasoned in their minds that they were crazy and hearing things, OR they could have had faith that God was there and desired to do His will. That is what faith is, and that was counted to them as righteousness. God called, the prophet and all of us are able to respond negatively or positively. Simple as that my friend.

 

[Miss E]

God enables the lost sinner to even be able to love and trust Jesus to save them, is that not love?

Enables = Forces. That is not love. That is choosing who will love you and is false love if you ask me.

 

[Oseas3]

Okay, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit,...

The Word COMMANDED, yeah, God commanded them not to eat.

... did He then make Adam and Eve sin?

Now, then the Devil, who made Eve sin, is God for you, no? By the way, the woman was the FIRST to be deceived by the Devil.

No, they had a free will choice to choose, and they did, wrongly, and now we have sinful natures, ...

No, they had not any free will, this is an invention of the Devil, and you were/are deceived by this satanic theory. That is tares.

...but we still have the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, who then grants us the Holy Spirit to be able to resist sin and follow Him in holiness.

No, it is not true, you are wrong, who believe in your doctrine will be deceived by it and by you. JESUS said: John 15:v.16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, ... JESUS said more: Matthew 11:v.27 - 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no MAN KNOWS THE SON, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON will reveal him. - I and my Father are One. John 10:v.30

And I've talked about that verse before in John. Jesus was talking directly to His diciples and he was talking about choosing them to start the first Christian church, not that he chose them to be saved.

No, your theory was not in the mind of JESUS, absolutely, as you try to suggest, you are wrong. By the way, JESUS said to His disciples: John 6:v.67-70: -
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

[Van]

I believe God knows (not chose) what a man will choose, but in the end, God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not. Other-wise, God is a God who forces man to love Him, and so, if He did choose us before time, selecting the few that will be saved, then really, God is an unjust God for not allowing a human the free will choice to choose and believe upon His son to be saved.

It's like having a life guard throw out a life raft to a drowning man (drowning man = man who is in sin and needs help), the man can choose to make the effort (effort = having faith in Jesus) and to grab hold of the raft or to refuse the help and drown and die. This is how God works, He offers the life raft (life raft = gift of salvation) and we, the drowning men/women have to make the conscious, free-will decision in our hearts and minds to choose to be saved by God.

This does NOT take away the glory and power that God has and will always have. This depicts a merciful, just and righteous God who gives ALL (Jews and Gentiles) a chance to be saved. But the saving is a two way thing, God offers the Way to salvation (His Son Jesus Christ) and man has to receive Jesus into their lives before they can be born again and be saved unto life ever-lasting.

I am sorry, Miss E, but I was unaware of your thread until it was featured, and it now is at least 6 pages long. I did not try to wade through 6 pages of no doubt Calvinist screed. It probably was just the same old copy and paste nonsense. However, setting all those posts, and your perhaps on point responses aside, I want to address your original post.

First, I have no problem with you choosing to believe God knows everything imaginable, past, present and future. That is the most widely held view of the meaning of God being "all knowing." I have another view, but I have yet to come across anyone willing to consider their view of "all knowing" is in error. So let us set that aside as well.

So now let me address the actual issue I hope to discuss: "God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not."

You are correct, although I quibble with the phrase "free will choice" because God can limit our choice (hardening our hearts as in Romans 11:7) and we can also, by the practice of sin, harden our own heart such that we loose the ability to understand, believe and be saved. So I prefer the phrase "limited autonomous will."

Your next point, God does not compel our putting our faith in Christ, is also correct. Jesus desired all men to be saved, but not by compulsion, which would result in universalism. Rather God wants all people to be saved in accordance with His redemption plan, i.e. everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Thus God saves believers, but God decides who are the believers if and when He credits a believers faith as righteousness, or not. Two key points, (1) if people could not put their faith fully in Christ, God would not say He credits our faith. (2) If our faith was the result of compulsion via irresistible grace, it would not need to be credited, God would again not take that action.

 

[Miss E]

You stated God “rewards” us with salvation when we chose to believe.

If God responds to what man does in granting salvation, that is works.

If woman responds to what God has done in her life with faith in Jesus, that is grace.

peace to you

You're very mislead. Responding to God in faith is NOT A WORK. A work is doing something good, having faith in someone is not doing something good, you can have faith that the devil is real and wants to torture you for all eternity, that is not good now is it? That's satanic in fact. So faith is not a work.

 

[Miss E]

The Word COMMANDED, yeah, God commanded them not to eat.


Now, then the Devil, who made Eve sin, is God for you, no? By the way, the woman was the FIRST to be deceived by the Devil.


No, they had not any free will, this is an invention of the Devil, and you were/are deceived by this satanic theory. That is tares.


No, it is not true, you are wrong, who believe in your doctrine will be deceived by it and by you. JESUS said: John 15:v.16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, ... JESUS said more: Matthew 11:v.27 - 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no MAN KNOWS THE SON, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON will reveal him. - I and my Father are One. John 10:v.30


No, your theory was not in the mind of JESUS, absolutely, as you try to suggest, you are wrong. By the way, JESUS said to His disciples: John 6:v.67-70: -
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Great job quoting my posts twice. And bolding, as if that makes any of what you say true or of God. I just have to say to you: re-study scipture. Because you're taking John 15 out of context WAY bad. my friend. He was talking about choosing the twelve specifically, not men who are saved, but to be his diciples to do specific work for the church, etc.

Get behind me Satan.

 

[Miss E]

I am sorry, Miss E, but I was unaware of your thread until it was featured, and it now is at least 6 pages long. I did not try to wade through 6 pages of no doubt Calvinist screed. It probably was just the same old copy and paste nonsense. However, setting all those posts, and your perhaps on point responses aside, I want to address your original post.

First, I have no problem with you choosing to believe God knows everything imaginable, past, present and future. That is the most widely held view of the meaning of God being "all knowing." I have another view, but I have yet to come across anyone willing to consider their view of "all knowing" is in error. So let us set that aside as well.

So now let me address the actual issue I hope to discuss: "God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not."

You are correct, although I quibble with the phrase "free will choice" because God can limit our choice (hardening our hearts as in Romans 11:7) and we can also, by the practice of sin, harden our own heart such that we loose the ability to understand, believe and be saved. So I prefer the phrase "limited autonomous will."

Your next point, God does not compel our putting our faith in Christ, is also correct. Jesus desired all men to be saved, but not by compulsion, which would result in universalism. Rather God wants all people to be saved in accordance with His redemption plan, i.e. everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Thus God saves believers, but God decides who are the believers if and when He credits a believers faith as righteousness, or not. Two key points, (1) if people could not put their faith fully in Christ, God would not say He credits our faith. (2) If our faith was the result of compulsion via irresistible grace, it would not need to be credited, God would again not take that action.

I have not considered your utonomous will, but it is intriguing. I'm glad you are one of the few on this board who agree with the points I made. Praise God brother. And I think the very same hardness of heart is being done today for those who are misguided in false teachings. It is very sad truly.

 

[Van]

I have not considered your utonomous will, but it is intriguing. I'm glad you are one of the few on this board who agree with the points I made. Praise God brother. And I think the very same hardness of heart is being done today for those who are misguided in false teachings. It is very sad truly.

Thanks, and I thought of Matthew 23:37 as another refutation of God compelling folks. Jesus wants them to become protected under his "wings" but they would not.

As far as the use of the phrase "limited autonomous will" it comes from the verse that says we make plans but God directs our steps. Thus we can make an autonomous choice within the purview God allows. Thus soil #1 of Matthew 13 has limited the choice because gospel understanding has been lost. However the other 3 soils could understand and like the gospel message, but 2 and 3 chose not to fully commit.

 

[canadyjd]

People know there is a God based on creation itself, so man is without an excuse. He reveals Himself to everyone and all have a chance to reject sin and trust in God. But man loves sin more than God and very man choose not to make them their Lord.

You are correct. Except, the generally revelation of God found in creation has been been rejected by all, and therefore has saved no one. All have been condemned. Unless you believe people are saved without the gospel. Do you?

So know we consider special revelation. God revealed His Word to you, and you responded with faith.

Please answer this question. What is it about you that God would reveal His Word to you (special revelation) while billions of people live and die without ever hearing the gospel.

Why are you special? Why did God chose to reveal His a word to you?

peace to you