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Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Miss E, Jul 21, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    IN WHOM YE TRUSTED, AFTER HEARING WORD OF TRUTH, AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED.

    How can you say we were predestined when right afterward Paul says we trusted after hearing the Gospel and after we believed? That denotes an action that one had to first believe before being saved. Yes, God knew our choice beforehand, but man chooses to believe or not. :)
     
    #101 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  2. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Sir, I believed as you did once about predestination, and I was convinced a long while, but then I saw the truth through MY OWN STUDYING OF THE WORD. Stop judging what you think I have done and judge me based on what I say myself. Thanks
     
    #102 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  3. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Yes, I love His son and trust His word and follow Him as my Lord. That is all a choice I had to make on my own after God revealed His word to me. I had to make that choice. As you did. As every saved man/woman has done in all of history.
     
    #103 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
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  4. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Okay, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit, did He then make Adam and Eve sin? No, they had a free will choice to choose, and they did, wrongly, and now we have sinful natures, but we still have the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, who then grants us the Holy Spirit to be able to resist sin and follow Him in holiness.

    And I've talked about that verse before in John. Jesus was talking directly to His diciples and he was talking about choosing them to start the first Christian church, not that he chose them to be saved.
     
    #104 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You stated God “rewards” us with salvation when we chose to believe.

    If God responds to what man does in granting salvation, that is works.

    If woman responds to what God has done in her life with faith in Jesus, that is grace.

    peace to you
     
    #105 canadyjd, Jul 22, 2020
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You admit God intervened in your life. He “revealed His word” to you.

    What made you so different that God chose to reveal His word to you when billions of people live and die without God revealing His word to them?

    What made you so special?

    peace to you
     
    #106 canadyjd, Jul 22, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you see any difference in us as to able to choose before and after the fall?
     
    #107 Yeshua1, Jul 22, 2020
  8. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Right, God revealed Himself to people as He does every day now through missionaries and people picking up and reading a bible, and then we respond in saving Faith. :)
     
    #108 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  9. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    People know there is a God based on creation itself, so man is without an excuse. He reveals Himself to everyone and all have a chance to reject sin and trust in God. But man loves sin more than God and very man choose not to make them their Lord.
     
    #109 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  10. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I don't understand the question. What do you mean? Either way, man chooses, that's the whole point. God doesn't FORCE us.
     
    #110 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  11. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Throwing comments like that is unloving. I interpret scripture with scripture and as I said, if God chose who to save and it takes our own personal choices to be saved, by believing in faith after hearing the Gospel, then the Bible contradicts itself, only one reality has to be true. And the reality is is that God lets us choose, while still maintaining all power and authority. He makes all things possible and work for the good of those who love Him based on man's choice. That is only one of many mysteries of God.
     
    #111 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  12. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Prophets had God come to them in dreams or by His voice, they could have reasoned in their minds that they were crazy and hearing things, OR they could have had faith that God was there and desired to do His will. That is what faith is, and that was counted to them as righteousness. God called, the prophet and all of us are able to respond negatively or positively. Simple as that my friend.
     
    #112 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  13. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Enables = Forces. That is not love. That is choosing who will love you and is false love if you ask me.
     
    #113 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  14. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    The Word COMMANDED, yeah, God commanded them not to eat.

    Now, then the Devil, who made Eve sin, is God for you, no? By the way, the woman was the FIRST to be deceived by the Devil.

    No, they had not any free will, this is an invention of the Devil, and you were/are deceived by this satanic theory. That is tares.

    No, it is not true, you are wrong, who believe in your doctrine will be deceived by it and by you. JESUS said: John 15:v.16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, ... JESUS said more: Matthew 11:v.27 - 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no MAN KNOWS THE SON, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON will reveal him. - I and my Father are One. John 10:v.30

    No, your theory was not in the mind of JESUS, absolutely, as you try to suggest, you are wrong. By the way, JESUS said to His disciples: John 6:v.67-70: -
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
     
    #114 Oseas3, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry, Miss E, but I was unaware of your thread until it was featured, and it now is at least 6 pages long. I did not try to wade through 6 pages of no doubt Calvinist screed. It probably was just the same old copy and paste nonsense. However, setting all those posts, and your perhaps on point responses aside, I want to address your original post.

    First, I have no problem with you choosing to believe God knows everything imaginable, past, present and future. That is the most widely held view of the meaning of God being "all knowing." I have another view, but I have yet to come across anyone willing to consider their view of "all knowing" is in error. So let us set that aside as well.

    So now let me address the actual issue I hope to discuss: "God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not."

    You are correct, although I quibble with the phrase "free will choice" because God can limit our choice (hardening our hearts as in Romans 11:7) and we can also, by the practice of sin, harden our own heart such that we loose the ability to understand, believe and be saved. So I prefer the phrase "limited autonomous will."

    Your next point, God does not compel our putting our faith in Christ, is also correct. Jesus desired all men to be saved, but not by compulsion, which would result in universalism. Rather God wants all people to be saved in accordance with His redemption plan, i.e. everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Thus God saves believers, but God decides who are the believers if and when He credits a believers faith as righteousness, or not. Two key points, (1) if people could not put their faith fully in Christ, God would not say He credits our faith. (2) If our faith was the result of compulsion via irresistible grace, it would not need to be credited, God would again not take that action.
     
    #115 Van, Jul 22, 2020
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  16. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    You're very mislead. Responding to God in faith is NOT A WORK. A work is doing something good, having faith in someone is not doing something good, you can have faith that the devil is real and wants to torture you for all eternity, that is not good now is it? That's satanic in fact. So faith is not a work.
     
    #116 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
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  17. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Great job quoting my posts twice. And bolding, as if that makes any of what you say true or of God. I just have to say to you: re-study scipture. Because you're taking John 15 out of context WAY bad. my friend. He was talking about choosing the twelve specifically, not men who are saved, but to be his diciples to do specific work for the church, etc.

    Get behind me Satan. :rolleyes:
     
    #117 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  18. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I have not considered your utonomous will, but it is intriguing. I'm glad you are one of the few on this board who agree with the points I made. Praise God brother. :) And I think the very same hardness of heart is being done today for those who are misguided in false teachings. It is very sad truly. :Frown
     
    #118 Miss E, Jul 22, 2020
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, and I thought of Matthew 23:37 as another refutation of God compelling folks. Jesus wants them to become protected under his "wings" but they would not.

    As far as the use of the phrase "limited autonomous will" it comes from the verse that says we make plans but God directs our steps. Thus we can make an autonomous choice within the purview God allows. Thus soil #1 of Matthew 13 has limited the choice because gospel understanding has been lost. However the other 3 soils could understand and like the gospel message, but 2 and 3 chose not to fully commit.
     
    #119 Van, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. Except, the generally revelation of God found in creation has been been rejected by all, and therefore has saved no one. All have been condemned. Unless you believe people are saved without the gospel. Do you?

    So know we consider special revelation. God revealed His Word to you, and you responded with faith.

    Please answer this question. What is it about you that God would reveal His Word to you (special revelation) while billions of people live and die without ever hearing the gospel.

    Why are you special? Why did God chose to reveal His a word to you?

    peace to you
     
    #120 canadyjd, Jul 22, 2020
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