Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[Dave G]

You turn men into robots who have to be 'turned on' in order to accept Jesus' grace, whom, according to you, Jesus picks and chooses whom He likes to be saved.

" And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." ( John 6:39 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

So if God says He wants EVERYONE TO REPENT. That means that man must make the conscious effort to turn away from their sins and trust in Jesus.

You deny this very scriptural truth?

No.

Will we as men ever make a conscious effort to repent?

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ).

 

[AustinC]

is the word sovereign in the bible ?

Read Ezekiel.

Sovereign in the Bible

 

[brian100]

I think its all based on faith. The only difference between a normal person and a Saint is faith.

 

[Dave G]

AKA God chooses what happens to you, against your will, like a dictator.

But you don't say it that way, do you?

He may not, but I will.
God can and does over-rule the will of men, and can even cause a man not to sin ( Genesis 20:6 ).

He can and does take a man's life away when He wants to....not when we're done living.
He can and does whatever He wants ( Daniel 4:35 ) within the bounds of Who He has revealed Himself to be in His word.

Let me ask you something else, when we sin, is that God willing us to sin? Or do we sin on our own?

But He never causes a man to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).
We do that just fine by ourselves, with no help needed.

And likewise, if we do a good act, is that God making us do the act? Or us ourselves doing the act of kindness?

I think you missed the part where all our righteousnesses, in His eyes, are as filthy rags.

The only one that does "good" in His eyes, are His people.
But the only one that is good is God ( Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18 ).

Either way, God gets the glory because as the Bible says, all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose.

I think you might be starting to see it, sister.

"The called" according to HIS purpose.
They are the ones who love Him...

Not the ones who are not the called according to His purpose.

 

[Dave G]

is the word sovereign in the bible ?

Do you think it needs to be?

" But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).
" Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).

 

[brian100]

I'm leaning towards Predestination of two people; man and woman. I might of found evidence he searches 2 hearts that will make it to heaven.

Mark 10:6-9
1 John 4:7
Matthew 22:2

 

[Dave G]

I'm leaning towards Predestination of two people; man and woman. I might of found evidence he searches 2 hearts that will make it to heaven.

I don't think any of us will "make it" to heaven.

I think that all of us will go to Hell and suffer an eternity of punishment for our sins, unless He saves us by His mercy.

 

[brian100]

Well without your sweetheart any other place is hell.

 

[Dave G]

I pick articles that show the truth.

I think you should stick to God's word, and forget the articles.

They may be helpful, but in the end we stand before God on our own and on His word alone, and no one is there to help us when we face Him.
He alone is our Helper, and our Deliverer.

Either He loves us and we love him, or He doesn't and we don't.

I want scriptural back up of your false claims that God chooses, and man doesn't.

That has been done.

Romans 8:28-30.
Ephesians 1:4-13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

John 1:13.
James 1:18.
Romans 3:10-18.

We choose Him because He chose us ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:44, John 6:64-65 ).
We love Him, because He loved us ( 1 John 4:19 ).

 

[Dave G]

I might have grown up Southern Baptist, but I don't believe like every 'traditional' Baptist believes, I fall on teh Word of God, plus, my pastor doesn't believe in predestination. And he's a preacher of a Baptist church, If anything, I am an evangelical christian.

May I suggest something?

Fall on it, and not your pastor's explanation of it.
If you're His, then you have everything you need to understand His words ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 2 Peter 1:3, 1 John 2:20 ).

Further, I know of quite a few Baptist pastors who don't believe many things that the Bible teaches.
For example, I know of several Baptist churches within 20 miles of my home that have pastors that are in flagrant disobedience to God's word in many places.
Not all pastors are who they claim to be.


But at the end of the day, that's not really what's important...
What's really important is this:
When and how did you come to Christ?

Was it sobering?
Did the Lord get a hold of you in a very "lump-in-the-throat" manner, revealing to you your desperate need of a Saviour during the preaching of God's word?
Did He show you your utter guilt, hopelessness and helplessness in the light of the penalty for that sin...
and, more importantly, your only Hope and escape from His wrath?
Jesus Christ crucified for your sins?

Do you find yourself reading and understanding His word more and more each time you study it?

The reality is, we can "debate" all day long and still "talk past" each other...
But is He leading you into all truth, the more you obey 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15?

Do you love His Son, His word, His people and seek to obey Him in everything?

I think that those are the real questions that have to be answered.
The rest will come in time.

 

[brian100]

God chooses Man and Woman.

Mark 10:6-9



And he brings them together= no choice.

Mark 10:9

 

[Oseas3]

I believe God knows (not chose) what a man will choose, but in the end, God has given man the free will choice to choose to follow/worship God or not.

Free will? God said: Genesis 2:v.16-17 - And the Lord God COMMANDED the man (imperative mode), saying, ... from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: - Question: Where is the free will in this God's imperative command? And the man was warned by God of the consequences if His command did not be obeyed, saying to the man: ...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Do not forget: The Word is God.

Also about the "choice to choose to follow/worship God or not", you need to re-study the subject, first because there is not free will, this is an invention of man deceived by the Devil, and on the other hand, JESUS said : John 15:v.16-17 - 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I COMMAND you, that ye love one another.

Other-wise, God is a God who forces man to love Him, and so, if He did choose us before time, selecting the few that will be saved, then really, God is an unjust God for not allowing a human the free will choice to choose and believe upon His son to be saved.

It's like having a life guard throw out a life raft to a drowning man (drowning man = man who is in sin and needs help), the man can choose to make the effort (effort = having faith in Jesus) and to grab hold of the raft or to refuse the help and drown and die. This is how God works, He offers the life raft (life raft = gift of salvation) and we, the drowning men/women have to make the conscious, free-will decision in our hearts and minds to choose to be saved by God.

There is not free will, this is an invention of man deceived by the Devil. Everything you have commented refers after man sinned and became a prisoner of sin. Any discussion of the supposed free will must be proved before man sinned, that is, when he was created (Genesis), and not after his uncontrolled sinful state in these last 6000 years ago, right?

If we love God and our neighbour, this act will manifest only by speaking the God's Truth, if we do not act in this way, we will be a stumbling block to the brothers, and this is not good, but evil.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It would be a redundancy the manner in which you speak something no NT writer would have done

It would be a redundancy the manner in which you speak something no NT writer would have done

It would be a redundancy the manner in which you speak something no NT writer would have done

Do you understand Greek better than the Ones who have translated the versions we have ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Read Ezekiel.

Sovereign in the Bible

Perfect . in any of the usages is there any resemblance to how calvernism uses the word 'sovereign '( meticulous determinism ) ? The dictionary definition is no way near the Calvernist understanding.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Do you think it needs to be?

" But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).
" Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).

Yes " whatever he pleases " . So we need to believe that . The bible actually says it pleases God to save those that believe.
We should stop where the bible stops. We have no business claiming God has determined something he has not said he has determined.

 

[1689Dave]

People always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls them through the reasons they base their free choices on.

 

[Dave G]

The bible actually says it pleases God to save those that believe.

I agree.

We should stop where the bible stops.

And we should go on to declare what the Bible declares...
Psalms 65:4.
Acts of the Apostles 2:37-47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Ephesians 1:3-13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
1 Peter 1:2.

We have no business claiming God has determined something he has not said he has determined.

But He has determined who He would save.
His love for His people has caused Him to send His Son.
Please see Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 and many others.

Those whom He foreknew, He has graciously accomplished many things for them...
Please see Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11.

 

[Marooncat79]

Was the pagan Abraham seeking God or did God miraculously reveal Himself to and call Abraham to be His son?

What about the Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road? Did God ask Paul if he wanted to be saved, or did God bring forth a new heart resulting in salvation?

My last comment

Romans 10:14 how cal they call on whom they have not believed means that before we can call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, we have to have believed upon Him with our hearts

As Paul Harvey would say

Good Day

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree.

And we should go on to declare what the Bible declares...
Psalms 65:4.
Acts of the Apostles 2:37-47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Ephesians 1:3-13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
1 Peter 1:2.

But He has determined who He would save.
His love for His people has caused Him to send His Son.
Please see Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 and many others.

Those whom He foreknew, He has graciously accomplished many things for them...
Please see Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11.

More proof text bingo here . You are making the leap that you see God determining some things in some way to mean in all things, including every time you go to the toilet .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Was the pagan Abraham seeking God or did God miraculously reveal Himself to and call Abraham to be His son?

What about the Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road? Did God ask Paul if he wanted to be saved, or did God bring forth a new heart resulting in salvation?

My last comment

Romans 10:14 how cal they call on whom they have not believed means that before we can call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, we have to have believed upon Him with our hearts

As Paul Harvey would say

Good Day

Suspiciously you failed to quote the whole text .
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14¶How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18¶But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
notice they need a preacher to hear and that faith comes by hearing .