Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[Barry Johnson]

Did God intend the death of Jesus to atone for the sins of all sinners?

Yes but you have to recieve the atonement . Rom 5 .11

 

[Van]

But you agree that TULIP says we have no control over those things, right?

The "T," "U," "L." and "I" of the TULIP are false doctrines. I agree that Once Saved, Always Saved is Biblical Doctrine, and that Christ died for all mankind is Biblical Doctrine, and that God chooses (elects) those whose faith He credits as righteousness is Biblical Doctrine.

So I am a one point Calvinist, a two point Arminian, and a three point Bible student, or so I like to think.

 

[Miss E]

Your conclusions are wrong.
Let's look at the faith of the Centurion to see how Jesus chooses. You tell me if the Centurion had any choice in the matter.

Matthew 8:5-10 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Do you see the authority that God has? If a lowly centurion has authority over a few and directs those under him at his word, how much more so does the King of Creation do as He so chooses?
In reading the gospel of Matthew it is the overarching theme that Jesus is the Sovereign King who decides what he will and will not do in every area of his ministry.

What amazes me is that you are demanding to be the ruler and yelling, nay screaming, in protest that God is a monster if He does not grant you authority to make all your decisions. Frankly, you come across as a toddler having a tantrum if you don't get your way. It is the sign of one who is young in the faith.

Truth be told, when my children were infants I would control them and choose for them all the time. They were infants who had no clue and thus they couldn't choose what was good for them. I had to choose for them and graciously do everything for them.
So it is with us. At the new birth, we were helpless infants. Just as we didn't choose our physical conception, so we didn't choose our spiritual conception. God, the Father, chose for us. God made us alive with Christ. You didn't choose to make yourself alive with Christ. God chose for you.

MissE, the Bible shows you this. Many here have provided passage after passage to point out this truth. At present, you just have a bigger tantrum when no one agrees with your demand. My suggestion is for you to go to your room, take a timeout, and spend time reading God's word with no interference from any other outside voice. Just let God talk to you in His word. He is the only one who can disuade you from your position in which you stand alone.

I don't take orders from anyone but God, so don't go on telling me what I should and should not do.

I have provided my scriptural support, pointed out how ya'lls scripture evidence is out of context, and give you simple analogies to depict a just, all-powerful and merciful God, while you choose to worship a God that controls His creation like a dictator. Plain as that, you just refuse to acknowledge that is what you and so many other blind Calvinists believe.

But as with all debates on our views, as long as you have trusted in Jesus, whether you believe God chose your salvation or you received it through faith by your own heart/head, then it's all good. Thanks for the conversations. I will stand my ground however, and continue to study the Word in my studies at seminary.

By the by, who is throwing a tantrum here? I'm having a civil conversation, albeit, rebuking while I do it because that is what the Bible commands me to do with false teachings and sinners.

 

[Miss E]

Did God intend the death of Jesus to atone for the sins of all sinners?

For God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He sent His only begotten son.

Yup. That sounds like everyone.

 

[Derf B]

So, let's not use it. Let us talk about what the Bible says about the corruption of the human Spirit. Let us talk about the grace God gives to believers. Let us talk about whom Jesus has ransomed. Let us talk about the calling of God and God's authority over man. Let us talk about the sanctification of our being and the process God uses. All these things are in God's word for us to examine. We can toss out acronyms. We don't need the 5 points of the Remonstrants or the 5 counterpoint's of the Calvinists. We just need to see what God declares.

Agreed. But if TULIP is an accurate representation of those things, the acronym isn't the offense. If TULIP is NOT an accurate representation of those things, but is an accurate representation of someone's views, the acronym still isn't the offense. Thus, it is easier to use the acronym. The question is whether TULIP is the accurate representation of biblical truth, and if you agree with it as biblical, and I don't, dispensing with the acronym is less than helpful.

Shall we discuss the corruption of the human spirit first?

 

[Miss E]

Agreed. But if TULIP is an accurate representation of those things, the acronym isn't the offense. If TULIP is NOT an accurate representation of those things, but is an accurate representation of someone's views, the acronym still isn't the offense. Thus, it is easier to use the acronym. The question is whether TULIP is the accurate representation of biblical truth, and if you agree with it as biblical, and I don't, dispensing with the acronym is less than helpful.

Shall we discuss the corruption of the human spirit first?

The human spirit is corrupt from birth due to sin, but once a sinner realizes he is a sinner and repents and trusts Jesus, God gives a new heart, a heart of flesh, taking out he heart of stone, so then we are no longer condemned, but saints in Christ and low, children of God.

 

[canadyjd]

Already answered that question, you just chose to ignore it. He shows mercy to those who repent and believe upon His son. Everyone has the chance to. Everyone. Period.

Please tell me how everyone has the chance (Everyone.Period) to believe when billions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

There only two options. You believe people can be saved through general revelation, and/or you believe the gospel is not necessary for salvation.

I understand how frustrated you seem to be and how reluctant to meditate on the logical conclusion conclusions of your statements.

I really don’t think it necessary to continue this discussion. However, if you want to look at this some more in a civil discussion, I am willing.

Peace to you

 

[Miss E]

Please tell me how everyone has the chance (Everyone.Period) to believe when billions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

There only two options. You believe people can be saved through general revelation, and/or you believe the gospel is not necessary for salvation.

I understand how frustrated you seem to be and how reluctant to meditate on the logical conclusion conclusions of your statements.

I really don’t think it necessary to continue this discussion. However, if you want to look at this some more in a civil discussion, I am willing.

Peace to you

I have been perfectly civil, It's not my fault you don't like being proven wrong.

The gospel is necessary for salvation, and all have a chance to hear it. Indeed, all have the ability to hear it today, or read it, in some fashion. Do I think all people heard the Gospel in all of history? No. But that is a fault of man's sin, who kept himself from hearing it to know God for they did not seek God, for they were sinful. But those who do seek Him out in faith will find him I believe.

 

[Derf B]

Did God intend the death of Jesus to atone for the sins of all sinners?

Yes!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please tell me how everyone has the chance (Everyone.Period) to believe when billions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel?

There only two options. You believe people can be saved through general revelation, and/or you believe the gospel is not necessary for salvation.

I understand how frustrated you seem to be and how reluctant to meditate on the logical conclusion conclusions of your statements.

I really don’t think it necessary to continue this discussion. However, if you want to look at this some more in a civil discussion, I am willing.

Peace to you

The Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD of sin righteousness and Judgement .

 

[Derf B]

The human spirit is corrupt from birth due to sin, but once a sinner realizes he is a sinner and repents and trusts Jesus, God gives a new heart, a heart of flesh, taking out he heart of stone, so then we are no longer condemned, but saints in Christ and low, children of God.

What does that corruption consist of? How does one corrupt a spirit?

 

[Miss E]

It seems the only level-headed believers here are myself, Barry Johnson, and Van,. Thank you brothers for having my back.

 

[Miss E]

What does that corruption consist of? How does one corrupt a spirit?

Hm, from knowing right from wrong and choosing to do wrong despite knowing right? I"m not quite sure. That is deep thinking there. What do you think?

 

[AustinC]

Agreed. But if TULIP is an accurate representation of those things, the acronym isn't the offense. If TULIP is NOT an accurate representation of those things, but is an accurate representation of someone's views, the acronym still isn't the offense. Thus, it is easier to use the acronym. The question is whether TULIP is the accurate representation of biblical truth, and if you agree with it as biblical, and I don't, dispensing with the acronym is less than helpful.

Shall we discuss the corruption of the human spirit first?

Sure. Let's start a new topic. How Corrupt is the Human Spirit and how much corruption is acceptable before God is needed?

I'll create the topic. You respond.

 

[AustinC]

For God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He sent His only begotten son.

Yup. That sounds like everyone.

Who is it that believes? Does everyone believe, universally?
If not, and many never hear the gospel message, does God still hold them accountable for not believing what they never knew?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes but you have to recieve the atonement . Rom 5 .11

If Jesus died for the sins of all, and paid for them, would those in Hell be there despite having been atoned for?

 

[Yeshua1]

The "T," "U," "L." and "I" of the TULIP are false doctrines. I agree that Once Saved, Always Saved is Biblical Doctrine, and that Christ died for all mankind is Biblical Doctrine, and that God chooses (elects) those whose faith He credits as righteousness is Biblical Doctrine.

So I am a one point Calvinist, a two point Arminian, and a three point Bible student, or so I like to think.

The reason eternal security works though is due to the 5 points of Grace all working together!

 

[Yeshua1]

For God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He sent His only begotten son.

Yup. That sounds like everyone.

Again, does he send the Holy Spirit to enable all lost sinners to be saved, and its them blocking the work and effort of God to save them?

 

[Yeshua1]

The human spirit is corrupt from birth due to sin, but once a sinner realizes he is a sinner and repents and trusts Jesus, God gives a new heart, a heart of flesh, taking out he heart of stone, so then we are no longer condemned, but saints in Christ and low, children of God.

How can those who desire and nature is to reject God though submit to Him?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure. Let's start a new topic. How Corrupt is the Human Spirit and how much corruption is acceptable before God is needed?

I'll create the topic. You respond.

How much of us was affected by the fall?