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Does God have a Mother II
- Thread starter Eliyahu
- Start date
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
But you know what? I'm sure the number of quotes containing the word "Trinity" would fall along the same lines. I guess you won't be recruiting folks to the Trinitarian club either.
I can't nor would I want to change it. However, the distortions you keep regurgitating do not constitute the standard history no matter how much you may whine about it.
Not even close.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Sure, since there are no factual errors in this your last post that need to be corrected.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
And I'm gratified that you are gratified.
I am reading the articles about the Council of Ephesus and the debate between Cyril and Nestorius. Relatively the literature written by Nestorius seems to be rare since all of them were burnt by his opponents.
I wonder if any of you has ever read the followings:
After 1500 years stigmatized as a heretic, a book written by Nestorius was discovered in 1895, known as the Bazaar of Heracleides, written towards the end of his life, in which he explicitly denies the heresy for which he was condemned, instead, affirming of Christ "the same one is twofold" - an expression that some consider similar to the formulation of the Council of Chalcedon. Nestorius's earlier surviving writings, however, including his letter written in response to Cyril's charges against him, contain material that seems to support charges that he held that Christ had two personhoods. So the question of whether Nestorius was actually a Nestorian is still a matter of debate.
I wonder if any of you has ever read the followings:
After 1500 years stigmatized as a heretic, a book written by Nestorius was discovered in 1895, known as the Bazaar of Heracleides, written towards the end of his life, in which he explicitly denies the heresy for which he was condemned, instead, affirming of Christ "the same one is twofold" - an expression that some consider similar to the formulation of the Council of Chalcedon. Nestorius's earlier surviving writings, however, including his letter written in response to Cyril's charges against him, contain material that seems to support charges that he held that Christ had two personhoods. So the question of whether Nestorius was actually a Nestorian is still a matter of debate.
"Nestorius was not a Nestorian"
The discovery of The Bazaar, which is the Apologia of Nestorius, was made public by Dr H. Goussen (though members of the Archbishop of Canterburys Mission to the Assyrian Christians had previously been acquainted with the book). The text has been edited by P. Paul Bedjan (Leipzig, 1910) and a French translation has been made by M. labb F. Nau. A representative selection of extracts has been given to English readers in J. F. Bethune-Bakers Nestorius and his Teaching (Cambridge, 1908), chapter ii. of which describes the MS. and its accounts. Much of the argument is thrown into the form of a dialogue between (I) Nestorius amid an imaginary opponent Superianus, (2) Nestorjus and Cyril. The book reveals a strong personality and helps us to know the man and his teaching, even though we have to gather his own views largely from his criticism of his antagonists. He is throughout more concerned for the wrong done to the faith at Ephesus than to himself, saying that if he held the views attributed to hi~n by Cyril he would be the first to condemn himself without mercy. All through the years of conflict he had but one end in view, that no one should call the Word of God a creature, or the Manhood which was assumed incomplete. In his letters to Celestine he had laid stress on the point that the teaching he attacked was derogatory to the Godhead and so he called its champions Arians. If the Godhead of the Son had its origin in the womb of the Virgin it was not Godhead as the Fathers, and He who was born could not be homoousios with God, and that was what the Arians denied Him to be. It is thus increasingly difficult to believe that Nestorius was a Nestorian
The discovery of The Bazaar, which is the Apologia of Nestorius, was made public by Dr H. Goussen (though members of the Archbishop of Canterburys Mission to the Assyrian Christians had previously been acquainted with the book). The text has been edited by P. Paul Bedjan (Leipzig, 1910) and a French translation has been made by M. labb F. Nau. A representative selection of extracts has been given to English readers in J. F. Bethune-Bakers Nestorius and his Teaching (Cambridge, 1908), chapter ii. of which describes the MS. and its accounts. Much of the argument is thrown into the form of a dialogue between (I) Nestorius amid an imaginary opponent Superianus, (2) Nestorjus and Cyril. The book reveals a strong personality and helps us to know the man and his teaching, even though we have to gather his own views largely from his criticism of his antagonists. He is throughout more concerned for the wrong done to the faith at Ephesus than to himself, saying that if he held the views attributed to hi~n by Cyril he would be the first to condemn himself without mercy. All through the years of conflict he had but one end in view, that no one should call the Word of God a creature, or the Manhood which was assumed incomplete. In his letters to Celestine he had laid stress on the point that the teaching he attacked was derogatory to the Godhead and so he called its champions Arians. If the Godhead of the Son had its origin in the womb of the Virgin it was not Godhead as the Fathers, and He who was born could not be homoousios with God, and that was what the Arians denied Him to be. It is thus increasingly difficult to believe that Nestorius was a Nestorian
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
In other words, at the time of Ephesus Nestorian wrote material which was "Nestorian"...and I've read this letter myself.
(Whether or not he backtracked later is a different story.)
Qte from D-T
Nestorius's earlier surviving writings, however, including his letter written in response to Cyril's charges against him, contain material that seems to support charges that he held that Christ had two personhoods. So the question of whether Nestorius was actually a Nestorian is still a matter of debate.
UQTE
This is a problem with the method of probe,because the opponents could easily cut out the other parts for their convenience of logic.
We have to have fair wordings too. Two personhood or Twofold of the one person may have been exaggerated. I believe that Nestorius never denied the deity of Jesus and that he never claimed two persons lived in one person Jesus.
He just refused the title " Mother of God" and was excommunicated just because of it and lived poor since then while the merciless, cruel and tricky Cyril lived rich and was canonized as the Holy Bishop.
We have to re-probe the history.
Nestorius's earlier surviving writings, however, including his letter written in response to Cyril's charges against him, contain material that seems to support charges that he held that Christ had two personhoods. So the question of whether Nestorius was actually a Nestorian is still a matter of debate.
UQTE
This is a problem with the method of probe,because the opponents could easily cut out the other parts for their convenience of logic.
We have to have fair wordings too. Two personhood or Twofold of the one person may have been exaggerated. I believe that Nestorius never denied the deity of Jesus and that he never claimed two persons lived in one person Jesus.
He just refused the title " Mother of God" and was excommunicated just because of it and lived poor since then while the merciless, cruel and tricky Cyril lived rich and was canonized as the Holy Bishop.
We have to re-probe the history.
BTW the above qte was from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/N/NE/NESTORIUS.htm, google.
Whether or not Orthodox, I just wanted to clarify the false accusation against a believer who denied the Mother of God hoax, which are held by so-called Human Orthodox.
Natters,
Have you commented on this?
I think I still have to continue to illustrate the silly aspects of syllogism:
1. Jesus is God,
Mary is Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is Mother of God.
2. Holy spirit is God,
Mary is Mother of God
Therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit
3. God the Father is God
Mary is Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father
4. Jesus was in the womb of Mary
Holy Spirit was not away from Jesus when He was in Mary’s womb.
Therefore Holy Spirit was carried by Mary.
5. Jesus was in the womb of Mary
God the Father was not away from Jesus when He was in Mary’s womb.
Therefore God the Father was in the womb of Mary.
6. Therefore from the above,
Mary was the Mother of God the Father, Mother of God the Son, Mother of God the Holy Spirit.
7. Jesus is Creator
Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Mary is the Mother of Creator of the whole Universe.
8. We have to respect Mother.
Mary is Mother of our God.
We have to respect Mary as Mother of God.
9. The Salvation was made possible just because Mary obeyed God.
Without Mary, there could be no Salvation possible.
Therefore we have to believe that Mary was the Co-Redeemer!
10. Ever-Virgin Mary, Perpetual Virgin Mary, Life time virgin Mary,
So loved the world, that she gave her only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
If anyone denies any of the above mentioned Faith Statements, that person is Heretic! Anathema !
-- A Heretic Comedy by Human Syllogism
Whether or not Orthodox, I just wanted to clarify the false accusation against a believer who denied the Mother of God hoax, which are held by so-called Human Orthodox.
Natters,
Have you commented on this?
I think I still have to continue to illustrate the silly aspects of syllogism:
1. Jesus is God,
Mary is Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is Mother of God.
2. Holy spirit is God,
Mary is Mother of God
Therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit
3. God the Father is God
Mary is Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father
4. Jesus was in the womb of Mary
Holy Spirit was not away from Jesus when He was in Mary’s womb.
Therefore Holy Spirit was carried by Mary.
5. Jesus was in the womb of Mary
God the Father was not away from Jesus when He was in Mary’s womb.
Therefore God the Father was in the womb of Mary.
6. Therefore from the above,
Mary was the Mother of God the Father, Mother of God the Son, Mother of God the Holy Spirit.
7. Jesus is Creator
Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Mary is the Mother of Creator of the whole Universe.
8. We have to respect Mother.
Mary is Mother of our God.
We have to respect Mary as Mother of God.
9. The Salvation was made possible just because Mary obeyed God.
Without Mary, there could be no Salvation possible.
Therefore we have to believe that Mary was the Co-Redeemer!
10. Ever-Virgin Mary, Perpetual Virgin Mary, Life time virgin Mary,
So loved the world, that she gave her only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
If anyone denies any of the above mentioned Faith Statements, that person is Heretic! Anathema !
-- A Heretic Comedy by Human Syllogism
You desert the same logic-Human Syllogism when you encounter a Paradox with Trinity with that logic.
You use the Syllogism for your convenience and then desert it when you encounter the contradiction, which proves the belief that you have is a paradox.
Don't desert it if it is everlasting truth!
Otherwise, you are Heretic Human Orthodox!
You use the Syllogism for your convenience and then desert it when you encounter the contradiction, which proves the belief that you have is a paradox.
Don't desert it if it is everlasting truth!
Otherwise, you are Heretic Human Orthodox!
Again, you will encounter the contradiction if you apply the same logic which was used in Mother of God theory, to the other Godheads as follows:
2. Holy spirit is God,
Mary is Mother of God
Therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit
3. God the Father is God
Mary is Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father
If you deny this you are Heretic!
- a heretic comedy-
If you don't understand, I can accept your ignorance and go to the sub-subject, Cyril vs Nestorius
2. Holy spirit is God,
Mary is Mother of God
Therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit
3. God the Father is God
Mary is Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father
If you deny this you are Heretic!
- a heretic comedy-
If you don't understand, I can accept your ignorance and go to the sub-subject, Cyril vs Nestorius
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Ooo...(hisss)...merciless, cruel, tricksy hobbitses, that Cyril (gollum, gollum)...tricksy and false...(gollum, gollum)..we hates it...FOREVER!!!!
Just to let you know, Cyril was bishop long before Ephesus. But don't let the historical facts get in the way of a good polemic.
You just keep re-probing history. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with next.