And yet the world is still the world, meaning every nation, every tribe, etc. Some of you still don't believe that. You keep referring to the unreached tribes, the unreached nations, etc. Jesus never spoke like that. He always spoke of every tribe, every nation.
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Does God love everyone?
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Why? Because one of your books says so? Laugh
An imprecatory psalm is defined by its content. It may be imprecatory in whole or in part, as Psalm 5 is.
As MacArthur said:
His prayers have two major concerns: "Help me and harm them!"
--Those psalms which are prayers and express the "harm them" aspect that MacArthur refers to, are imprecatory in nature. They are not confined to a certain half dozen psalms. One may find these expressions in many of the psalms.
To Brothers agedman and RevMitchell:
The point I was trying to convey, and failed miserably, so please forgive me, is that there are two types of people in the world.
we have:
--sheep and goats
--saved and unsaved
--found and lost
--justified and condemned
--free and enslaved
And so on...and so on...and so on...
Now, all of Adam's posterity fall into one of these two 'sects', 'worlds', 'realms', &c. There is no third group. So if there is a 'world of believers', then there is a 'world of unbelievers'.
The point I was trying to convey, and failed miserably, so please forgive me, is that there are two types of people in the world.
we have:
--sheep and goats
--saved and unsaved
--found and lost
--justified and condemned
--free and enslaved
And so on...and so on...and so on...
Now, all of Adam's posterity fall into one of these two 'sects', 'worlds', 'realms', &c. There is no third group. So if there is a 'world of believers', then there is a 'world of unbelievers'.
I didn't mention the world "world" in my last post and neither did MacDonald.
The Lord has His people from among every tribe and language and people and nation. That does not mean every single person who has and shall live.
You had just acknowledged in a former post that there have indeed been and are unreached people. Don't go on a side trail. Calvinists believe that one must believe the Gospel. But there have been and shall be unreached people past,present and future. Because they have not heard does not absolve them of their sins. And it will be for their sins they will be condemned to Perdition. You need to revierw Romans 1 and 2.
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So, at this point I forget, why did you make that point? I am just trying to remember the premise of that statement.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Right, he formally labels a portion of Scripture that way he can dismiss it out of hand when it is quoted and used. Anything, including this to 'appear' right in his own mind. The practice is dismissive of 2 Timothy 2:15.
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Bro. Mitchell, it's post # 393.
Thank you for that help. Still in that post the premise is not revealed. I think it all falls back to your statement "if Christ interceded on behalf of all mankind, all mankind would be saved". Such a statement could be true but does not have to be true. It all depends on the intercession provided. God can, in His sovereignty, decide that I will only intercede for a few so the cross is only good for them. Or God can also decide that I will intercede for everyone and allow them to decide to come to me. He has the authority to do that, He has the power to do that, and according to scripture He has the will to do that. (2 Peter 3:9) What that verse does not say is God is not will that the elect should perish. It says God is not willing that any should perish.
God can will and desire that people not die and go to hell without actually forcing a new will on them. God can will and desire that no one go to hell without actually saving them. Having the will and desire does not impose on God that He must save them.
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Rev.
You make some valid points.
The other side of the argument does, too.
Only those that the Father gives to the Son will come to belief. That is consistently the statement of both John and Paul when Paul would write such things as the opening of Ephesians:
"...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."
There is place to acknowledge that God loves the whole world, and that He (as Christ examples while overlooking Jerusalem) desires all to be saved.
There is also place to acknowledge that God only prepares certain ground (parable of sower) for the seed to be planted, nourished, and crop harvested.
There are those who would take the "all" to be only the "all" of the elect, because of some perceived difficulty they imagine when "all" is taken as totally inclusive.
There are those who by taking the "all" to be totally inclusive, who would also include some human generated thinking by teaching such things as preceding grace, or spiritual ability that is not found in Scriptures.
So, the principled believer is going to see that God, as Sovereign, gave His Son as the one time blood sacrifice to the whole world - everything and everybody in it. That is the consistent statement of the Apostle John in his writings.
The principled believer is also going to see that God, as Sovereign, blinds and shuts the ears of people for two reasons. One that they, because of rejection, reap what they sow. Two, that the ministry of the Gospel be taken to other places. Both of these reasons are supported throughout the NT in places such as Romans, Hebrews, and the Gospels.
Further, the principled believer will see that God, as Sovereign, purposefully and directly opens the heart and illumines the mind by implanting His word into the person, the result being that person will believe for that is for what they were prepared. (parable of sower)
It was implied.
No non-Cal believes that every person shall be saved. This is a false accusation or false conclusion drawn by the Calvinist. But we do acknowledge that the gospel will go into all the world. What is all the world. All the world is represented perhaps best by the UN. It includes all the nations of the world. That is not a perfect representation for we know that some are missing.
What does the Book of Revelation say?
Here is a picture of the redeemed:
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
--They come from: every kindred, language group, type of people, and nations.
(ESV) And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Every tribe--all the various tribes that may be found in India, Africa, South America that don't constitute a nation in themselves.
Every language grouping--
In India alone Wikipedia states: "According to Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages."
That is a lot of languages just for one nation.
Every type of people would refer to race.
Every nation would refer to the nations of the world.
--The world is spoken of here. One does not have to use the word "world."
No nation, No "people" will be unreached. See above. But there will be many that will reject the gospel.
The same truth is expressed here:
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
--Who will be missed?
Who in our generation will be missed? Only those who we deliberately miss![/QUOTE]
We do not believe everyone will be saved. We do believe that everyone has the opportunity to be saved.
OK, somewhere to the right of the star, I got lost in the cluster of posts.
DHK said:
This is what the typical Cal's also seem to think.
DHK said:
This is what the typical Cal's also seem to think.
DHK said:
There are Cal's who disagree and desire the death to be limited.
In my own personal perspective of the teaching of Scriptures, I don't see a limit placed in Scripture upon the blood of Christ. However, I do see a limit placed upon those God has given to Christ to become His adopted child.
That does not make me limited in vision as someone in both the non-cal and cal would seek to discredit, but perhaps the limit of vision is upon some who would place "world" as not inclusive of all God's creation.
DHK said:
However, (IMO) there is a great tendency for folks to hang onto history and creeds above the clear teaching of Scriptures in all "groupings" that contend. This (imo) is a bit more evident among the Cals, because of the central figure from which the name is derived, and the more extensive documents available.
However, (IMO) the non-cals also would chase after "authorities" which support their thinking, even to some who may have more serious doctrinal and living errors (no names given because that is not this thread).
DHK asks:
Of COURSE some Cal's do, but some do not.
For example even on this thread there occurs at least twice a statement, from those who are more in agreement with Calvinistic thinking, that God has a general love for all in the world, and a more specific family love for those who are His.
Such is EXACTLY the thinking that agrees with Scriptures.
Then, of course, one can find the extreme views of both the non- Cal and the Cal which states either God loves and will never send anyone to hell, or that God doesn't love anyone except me an mine and gleefully appoints the rest to hell and I intend to help by not telling them that God loves them for I think love is a lie.
So what is the real contention about?
Seriously?
I have yet to see anyone answer the following:
The Lord Jesus Christ said, "Love your enemies."
Does God require and attribute or character trait from believers what He does not require of Himself?
DHK said:
This is what the typical Cal's also seem to think.
DHK said:
This is what the typical Cal's also seem to think.
DHK said:
There are Cal's who disagree and desire the death to be limited.
In my own personal perspective of the teaching of Scriptures, I don't see a limit placed in Scripture upon the blood of Christ. However, I do see a limit placed upon those God has given to Christ to become His adopted child.
That does not make me limited in vision as someone in both the non-cal and cal would seek to discredit, but perhaps the limit of vision is upon some who would place "world" as not inclusive of all God's creation.
DHK said:
Yes and so do many of the non-cals.
However, (IMO) there is a great tendency for folks to hang onto history and creeds above the clear teaching of Scriptures in all "groupings" that contend. This (imo) is a bit more evident among the Cals, because of the central figure from which the name is derived, and the more extensive documents available.
However, (IMO) the non-cals also would chase after "authorities" which support their thinking, even to some who may have more serious doctrinal and living errors (no names given because that is not this thread).
DHK asks:
Of COURSE some Cal's do, but some do not.
For example even on this thread there occurs at least twice a statement, from those who are more in agreement with Calvinistic thinking, that God has a general love for all in the world, and a more specific family love for those who are His.
Such is EXACTLY the thinking that agrees with Scriptures.
Then, of course, one can find the extreme views of both the non- Cal and the Cal which states either God loves and will never send anyone to hell, or that God doesn't love anyone except me an mine and gleefully appoints the rest to hell and I intend to help by not telling them that God loves them for I think love is a lie.
So what is the real contention about?
Seriously?
I have yet to see anyone answer the following:
The Lord Jesus Christ said, "Love your enemies."
Does God require and attribute or character trait from believers what He does not require of Himself?
Yes this is what it all boils down to. What God require an attribute of man that He does not require of Himself.
The parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example here. The world is our neighbor, all the world. This was the teaching of Jesus.
Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
That "certain unnamed man" represents the world, not the elect.
The parable ends this way:
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
MacDonald comments:
10:36, 37 Then the Savior asked the inescapable question. Which of the three proved neighbor to the helpless man? The one who showed mercy, of course. Yes, of course. Then the lawyer should go and do likewise. “If a Samaritan could prove himself a true neighbor to a Jew by showing mercy to him, then all men are neighbors.”
It is not difficult for us to see in the priest and Levite a picture of the powerlessness of the law to help the dead sinner; the law commanded “Love your neighbor as yourself” but it did not give the power to obey. Neither is it difficult to identify the good Samaritan with the Lord Jesus who came to where we were, saved us from our sins, and made full provision for us from earth to heaven and through all eternity. Priests and Levites may disappoint us but the Good Samaritan never does.
The story of the good Samaritan had an unexpected twist to it. It started off to answer the question “Who is my neighbor?” But it ended by posing the question “To whom do you prove yourself a neighbor?”
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
MacDonald comments:
10:36, 37 Then the Savior asked the inescapable question. Which of the three proved neighbor to the helpless man? The one who showed mercy, of course. Yes, of course. Then the lawyer should go and do likewise. “If a Samaritan could prove himself a true neighbor to a Jew by showing mercy to him, then all men are neighbors.”
It is not difficult for us to see in the priest and Levite a picture of the powerlessness of the law to help the dead sinner; the law commanded “Love your neighbor as yourself” but it did not give the power to obey. Neither is it difficult to identify the good Samaritan with the Lord Jesus who came to where we were, saved us from our sins, and made full provision for us from earth to heaven and through all eternity. Priests and Levites may disappoint us but the Good Samaritan never does.
The story of the good Samaritan had an unexpected twist to it. It started off to answer the question “Who is my neighbor?” But it ended by posing the question “To whom do you prove yourself a neighbor?”
I never said or implied that non-Calvinists think everyone will be saved. That is a false charge from people on your side of the aisle.
Of course. I have emphasized the same repeatedly.
The Lord has His elect in all these various grouping internationally.And as MacDonald said, it does not mean everyone without exception. It means everyone without distinction.
Don't muddy the waters. What is true is not one person of the elect will be "unreached" by the Lord.
Everyone of His people will accept the Gospel. Of course, of those who have heard the Gospel and are not among the elect will reject it. And those who are not among the elect and who have never heard the Gospel will be condemned by the Lord for their sin.
The Gospel was not proclaimed in Old Testament times. So many others have to be added to the list of those who have not heard of the Gospel.
I have absolutely no problem with the above.
Again, do not confuse categories. The Lord has His own from among all these various groupings. Revelation 14:6 is speaking of something yet future.
The Lord will not "miss" any of His own.
The conclusion of the parable warrants that conclusion.
The field is the world. The world is my neighbor. Whomever I meet and am able to meet, which in our time is all the world.
You have taken up the cause on behalf of others.
There are Calvinists that have posted "If Christ died for all then all would be saved."
"If Christ died for every nation then every nation would be saved."
This logic, continually used by Calvinists, is wrong. Check back and see how many times it has been used. No, the non-Cal does not believe everyone will be saved; he believes that this erroneous logic of the typical Calvinist is quite fallacious.
Thus the Scripture in Rev.5:9 which speaks of the redeemed:
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
But many Calvinists still object. Parts of the world have not been reached. What about the tribes, the "peoples" even the "nations" that have not been reached.
But I object, and profusely so. To say "What about???" is to doubt God's promises and His words. It is to question the integrity of His Word, His power to save whom He said He would save, and there are those on this board that are doing just that.
What about the unreached tribes in this world? Well, what about them? I leave them in God's hands, and by faith God will do what He said He will do! I do not cast doubt (Hath God said), at the promises of God, as some do. I believe his Word.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
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