Does God love the lost?

[Agent47]

By "all" I mean that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially the believers. All men have an opportunity to be saved (a legitimate offer is made) but no one responds to this offer (this "general call"). This is seen throughout the Old Testament as well - God offers mercy to those who will repent and turn to Him.

But Jesus died to atone for the sins of those who believe (more than an offer).

Jesus loves all men ok
He offers salvation or gift of salvation to all as a consequence or manifestation of this love. Ok

The offer is legitimate; the subjects are well capable of receiving it. Nobody responds to this offer.

What happens next, another special and more persuasive offer to some select (Elect),right?

 

[JonC]

Jesus loves all men ok
He offers salvation or gift of salvation to all as a consequence or manifestation of this love. Ok

The offer is legitimate; the subjects are well capable of receiving it. Nobody responds to this offer.

What happens next, another special and more persuasive offer to some select (Elect),right?

Yes and no - a "general call" and an "effectual call". I wouldn't say a "more persuasive" call but an effectual call through which we are made new creatures in Christ (the power of the gospel).

Part of the condemnation (I believe the primary part) is that men reject the Son. I don't mean that men must hear the gospel message, but in their rejection of God (through what is revealed) they reject the Son as the Redemption of God because God is faithful to forgive those who repent and turn to Him. This was true in the Old Testament and this is true with the arrival of the New Covenant (God is immutable and there has always been One Way and One Way offered to the World). I do not believe that God's plan of redemption changed at the Cross. It was always to save those who would believe (those "among the elect").

I do not believe that God chose to create elect and non-elect people, actively saving some (causing their faith) and actively damning others (causing their disbelief). I believe in "double predestination" only in the sense that God purposed to save some (grace through faith, all a work of God) and not to save others (both for His purposes).

The difference, I think, between my view and @Reformed 's position (and he can correct me if I've misunderstood) is that I believe everything - to include judgment - is given unto Christ through the Son's faithful obedience to the Father even unto His death on the Cross. I believe that on the Cross we see God reconciling the world to Himself (which I believe implies placing all things under Christ - even the reprobate who will not believe).

So Christ died for the world because God loves the lost. And this love is evidenced to through those who do believe and, in the negative, it is evidenced through the judgment of those who will not believe. It is all about God.

 

[Agent47]

Yes and no - a "general call" and an "effectual call". I wouldn't say a "more persuasive" call but an effectual call through which we are made new creatures in Christ (the power of the gospel).

Part of the condemnation (I believe the primary part) is that men reject the Son. I don't mean that men must hear the gospel message, but in their rejection of God (through what is revealed) they reject the Son as the Redemption of God because God is faithful to forgive those who repent and turn to Him. This was true in the Old Testament and this is true with the arrival of the New Covenant (God is immutable and there has always been One Way and One Way offered to the World). I do not believe that God's plan of redemption changed at the Cross. It was always to save those who would believe (those "among the elect").

I do not believe that God chose to create elect and non-elect people, actively saving some (causing their faith) and actively damning others (causing their disbelief). I believe in "double predestination" only in the sense that God purposed to save some (grace through faith, all a work of God) and not to save others (both for His purposes).

The difference, I think, between my view and @Reformed 's position (and he can correct me if I've misunderstood) is that I believe everything - to include judgment - is given unto Christ through the Son's faithful obedience to the Father even unto His death on the Cross. I believe that on the Cross we see God reconciling the world to Himself (which I believe implies placing all things under Christ - even the reprobate who will not believe).

So Christ died for the world because God loves the lost. And this love is evidenced to through those who do believe and, in the negative, it is evidenced through the judgment of those who will not believe. It is all about God.

Thank you.
God loves all and this is evidenced by the general call to salvation to all but it never saves nobody.

Then He effectually calls some and they are saved. The rest, missing out on this are damned. Selectively effectually calling some is evidence that He loves all. How is this?

Seems to me beneficiaries of the effectual call, so called Elect, are the only group that can claim God loves them; He generally called them, then He effectually called them. God's unsuccessful attempt to save all through general call is evidence of His love to all. God's successful attempt to save some through effectual call is similarly evidence of His love to these and nobody else.

Hypothetically, supposing the general call was restricted from some (totally uncalled) who never receive effectual calling as well. You can't state that the general call to others is evidence of God's love for these (totally uncalled). If at all God loves the totally uncalled, you'd have to dig for other evidence outside the restrictive general and effectual call they were never offered.

In short, God's love can't be demonstrated in calling and not calling at the same time. Don't seem logical to me

 

[MennoSota]

God displays his love to those whom he has chosen to adopt.
God displays the patience of his wrath on those whom he chooses not to adopt.
God looks upon his creation and says "fearfully and wonderfully made." God looks upon the corruption of man's spirit and says "filthy rags."
God's grace is an expression of His love. To whom does he express effectual grace? To those whom he has chosen to adopt.

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Who is "us?" The adopted children of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. That is Scripture. The Bible says that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. There are many Calvinists accept these passages as original to Scripture (rather than Synergist additions). In fact, "Reformed" folk who deny they were once lost sinners are really not true to Reformed doctrine (and a "Calvinist" who denies that God sent His Son to save the lost, and that this was Gods love, has departed from Calvinism).

Hello JonC,
The US in Romans 5.....is speaking of the justified as per Rom 5 :1,we who are now justified were dead in sins ....Jesus having died for Us...before we were converted.

if as Reformed has said someone is speaking of the love of benevolence...the goodness of God...that is expressed to all, but the saving love is a Covenant Love only.

 

[Agent47]

God displays his love to those whom he has chosen to adopt.
God displays the patience of his wrath on those whom he chooses not to adopt.
God looks upon his creation and says "fearfully and wonderfully made." God looks upon the corruption of man's spirit and says "filthy rags."
God's grace is an expression of His love. To whom does he express effectual grace? To those whom he has chosen to adopt.

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Who is "us?" The adopted children of God.

He exercises patience with those He won't adopt? For what reason exactly? Whether He's patient or not they are not getting adoption, they are damned.

 

[Iconoclast]

He exercises patience with those He won't adopt? For what reason exactly? Whether He's patient or not they are not getting adoption, they are damned.

He is longsuffering in that He allows these rebels to live and breathe His air and enjoy things in this life,lk16....psalm73.....when they deserve only wrath.

 

[JonC]

Hello JonC,
The US in Romans 5.....is speaking of the justified as per Rom 5 :1,we who are now justified were dead in sins ....Jesus having died for Us...before we were converted.

if as Reformed has said someone is speaking of the love of benevolence...the goodness of God...that is expressed to all, but the saving love is a Covenant Love only.

I agree. And I do realize that many of our comments reflect how we understand the mind of God in terms of "lapsarianism". This saving love is a particular love expressed to God's particular people (those who believe, the "elect").

God does not love the lost by forgiving their sins. The Spirit does not abide within them. They do not have the hope of life at all. And that was once us. We once experienced the love of God as a Creator to creation love, to include the promise that God is truly faithful and if we repent and turn to Him we would be forgiven. But now we experience the love of God as a Father to a child, in Christ, and we experience forgiveness and love in a way the lost can never imagine.

 

[Agent47]

He is longsuffering in that He allows these rebels to live and breathe His air and enjoy things in this life,lk16....psalm73.....when they deserve only wrath.

But He does not love them, right?

 

[MennoSota]

He exercises patience with those He won't adopt? For what reason exactly? Whether He's patient or not they are not getting adoption, they are damned.

For His own Sovereign reason.

Do you believe God is obligated to adopt all humanity?

Is God unloving if he only adopts some and not all?

Is God unfair to adopt some, but not all?

What is so good in any human that God would even choose to adopt one, let alone many?

Why are humans damned?

Are they damned because an unloving God unjustly damn them?

Are they damned because a loving God justly judges and condemns them as lawbreakers?

Many questions for you to answer regarding the biblical truths of adoption.

 

[TCassidy]

And that is a perfect Synergist explanation.

I disagree. God, in this manner, loved the world. All of it. That He gave His one unique Son, that whoever believes (who will believe? The elect, drawn to Christ by the Father) will never perish but have everlasting life.

That is monergism to the core!

 

[JonC]

Thank you.
God loves all and this is evidenced by the general call to salvation to all but it never saves nobody.

Then He effectually calls some and they are saved. The rest, missing out on this are damned. Selectively effectually calling some is evidence that He loves all. How is this?

Seems to me beneficiaries of the effectual call, so called Elect, are the only group that can claim God loves them; He generally called them, then He effectually called them. God's unsuccessful attempt to save all through general call is evidence of His love to all. God's successful attempt to save some through effectual call is similarly evidence of His love to these and nobody else.

I agree - the saved are all of those who God effectually calls. I wouldn't say that the "general call" is an unsuccessful attempt to save all (no more than the Law was an unsuccessful attempt of redemption). The general call is, I believe, God telling the world that salvation is here, that He is faithful to His word and if any turn to Him in repentance He will be faithful to forgive their sins. This is love, and it is a legitimate offer of salvation. At the same time I believe that this "sets the stage" for God's recreation of mankind in Christ Jesus. The Father gives the sheep to the Son, and the Son loses none whom the Father gives. The difference here is that some believe the sheep were always sheep. To use an illustration about the Judgment, I believe that I was once a goat but God worked supernaturally in me so that I am a new creature (I don't think we can refer to the lost as a sheep until he is found, or elect until he is saved).

But if you talk about, to borrow again from Spurgeon, God's "choice portion" then it is His people. And yes, God loves the Church in a way that God does not love the World.

Hypothetically, supposing the general call was restricted from some (totally uncalled) who never receive effectual calling as well. You can't state that the general call to others is evidence of God's love for these (totally uncalled). If at all God loves the totally uncalled, you'd have to dig for other evidence outside the restrictive general and effectual call they were never offered.

There are no "totally uncalled".

In short, God's love can't be demonstrated in calling and not calling at the same time. Don't seem logical to me

I believe that God chose not to choose everyone.Those God did not save He still created and I believe for a purpose. I think that God created the "vessels of wrath" for His own glory. While we may find it difficult to understand now, I think that we can accept this now and understand later. Personally, I don't have the same barrier (not seeing the logic).

If I love God then I hate sin. Is not my hate for sin an expression of my love for God? If a man loves his wife then he opposes anything that would harm her. Is not this negative (opposing things/people that would harm his wife) an expression of the positive (a man's love for his wife)? If God loves lost people so that he saves some, is not God's rightful judgment against those who remain opposed to Him (the reprobate) not an expression of God's love and is this not an expression of God's own glory? I believe so. But I understand this can be a philosophical argument and people disagree.

 

[TCassidy]

So why do some accept the offer while others reject it?

And when you understand that you will understand Monergism.

 

[Iconoclast]

But He does not love them, right?

No...
Not in a saving Covenant love . If He did they would he saved.
47....think of it this way....was the love of God in the Ark, or outside of it during the destruction of the world of the ungodly?
Is the love of God In Christ, or in Adam?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

No...
Not in a saving Covenant love . If He did they would he saved.
47....think of it this way....was the love of God in the Ark, or outside of it during the destruction of the world of the ungodly?
Is the love of God In Christ, or in Adam?

God's Spirit had already "strove with man" for at least "120 years" while Noah, the "preacher of righteousness" was building the ark. But God had also said "my spirit will not always strive with man". Today, just like then, God extends His love and the invitation to repent and believe the Gospel, to all of us in this life, but after you die you have used up all of your opportunities.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Colossians 2: 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

He was the manifestation of "the Father", the "Emmanuel"(God with us) indwelled with the "fulness of the Godhead". It was God Almighty, the Great "I Am", the King of Glory who "loved" the rich young ruler and "wept" and wanted to gather the city of Jerusalem under Him. But sadly it was their choice to refuse His lovingkindness as it is the Calvinist's choice to minimize and purport that lovingkindness as something limited to a few. Your choice. But I choose a Jesus who gave Himself for the whole world and offered His boundless love to all. Why? Because He first loved me.

 

[Rolfe]

Does God love the lost?

I would think that John 3:16 would decisively answer that.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Does God love the lost?

I would think that John 3:16 would decisively answer that.

It certainly does for me.

 

[MennoSota]

Thank you.
God loves all and this is evidenced by the general call to salvation to all but

it never saves nobody.

So...you are a universalist! [emoji41] [emoji56]

 

[SheepWhisperer]

So...you are a universalist! [emoji41] [emoji56]

u·ni·ver·sal·ism
ˌyo͞onəˈvərsəˌlizəm/
noun

1. 1.
   CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
   the belief that all humankind will eventually be saved. universaLISM - Google Search

You keep getting it wrong, bro. Once again, the belief that Jesus died for every single person who ever lived, but that only those who CHOOSE to believe on Him, of their own CHOICE, is NOT "universalism".