Does God need to be worshipped?

[Lorelei]

Checkmate:

You were questioning his psychology, You were questoining his existance. You questioned your environment, and your surroundings. Your education, and the possibility of there being a "god". The risks vs. rewards. And You didn't have to defend Your faith. You were not questioned by another person. You questioned Yourself. You thought "hey, this isn't right!" You delved into Your "soul" and You gave it some good hard thought. Then You arrived at Your decision. It's unfair of us to accuse You of having a lack of faith. You had faith, and it led You nowhere but in circles.

You did a lot here, but You didn't let God do anything. Then you tell us:

And if the answers to these quesitions that I have posted were ever answered with any difinitiveness, to MY satisfaction, I would have changed my mind.

You have made up Your mind, nothing we can say will change it until you are willing to accept that You may be wrong.

~Lorelei

 

[chekmate]

That's the difference between me, an athiest, and many of you Christians. I AM willing to admit the possibility that I am wrong. All you have to do is give me a reason to, and I'll admit that I am wrong. I've had faith, and that didn't work out. Give me just one piece of empirical, unbiased proof and I'll believe.

 

[judy m villeneuve]

Originally posted by poikilotherm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by chekmate:
When you say though that god doesn't so much need D to be worshipped, and he wants it, you are implying that he is unfullfilled. For something to become fullfilled it needs something. In this case, your love and worship.

And as I say, "a god in need is no god indeed"

This would be an interesting idea, if G-d were human. G-d isn't human, therefore, in the last analysis, the argument is irrelevant.

I think the problem is that, while anthropomorphisation sometimes gives insight, it can't be followed too far, and always must be acknowleged as anthropomorphisation, and nothing more. Its fun, but not substantial.</font>[/QUOTE]

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [ 1:26 Hebrew; Syriac [ all the wild animals ] ] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:25-27)

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:26-28)

If we were indeed created in God's own image, then we are like God, so why is it anthropomorphizing what chekmate is doing?

[ March 04, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: lyra ]

 

[DHK]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
God doesn’t need to prove His existence to anyone. From the very first verse of the Bible He assumes it. We believe it by faith. Your problem is a matter of unbelief. You do believe. But you have set up your own belief system–a system of belief that centers around rejection and self. Belief in the denial of God’s existence is just as much a belief as in the existence of God: it is belief nevertheless.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
—Verse 25 plainly says that God needs nothing. If God needed anything (including worship), than God would not be God. God is all-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, omni-present. He doesn’t need you, and he doesn’t need me. And he doesn’t need our worship. He does not NEED anything. HE IS GOD!! But this great loving omnipotent God created you so that He might make you an object of His great love. There is no one in this earth that He loves any more than you. He created you to bestow His love upon you. You don’t have to worship God; He doesn’t need it. But if you came to Christ and thanked Him for the love that He demonstrated for you on the cross by dying for you, you would be worshipping Him. And that is the least that we could do for One who has done so much for us.
DHK

 

[chekmate]

But the mere fact that he will send me to hell for not believing is proof that he has a preference of belief over non-belief. If someone has a prefence, then they want you to do something. If they want something, and they don't already have it, that would mean that they are unfullfilled. In order to become fullfilled, they would need to get what they want. In the case of god, this equates to a need to be worshipped.

A god in need is no god indeed.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by chekmate:
If someone has a preference, then they want you to do something. If they want something, and they don't already have it, that would mean that they are unfulfilled. In order to become fulfilled, they would need to get what they want. In the case of god, this equates to a need to be worshipped.

Fallacy of Composition! "If someone has a" preference, then they want you to do something."

You have made a succession of statements, all of which suffer from Fallacy of Composition. Re-read your post apply everything you just stated to youself as an individual and you will see the glaring fallacy.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by chekmate:
But the mere fact that he will send me to hell for not believing is proof that he has a preference of belief over non-belief. If someone has a prefence, then they want you to do something. If they want something, and they don't already have it, that would mean that they are unfullfilled. In order to become fullfilled, they would need to get what they want. In the case of god, this equates to a need to be worshipped.

A god in need is no god indeed.

False premise.

1. God does not send people to Hell.

2. People do not go to Hell because of unbelief, they go because of a natural consequence of their sin.

Next.

Mike

 

[chekmate]

Post-it
I re-read my post, substituting myself in the places where it fits, and I don't know what you are talking about. Please elaborate.

Smoke Eater
That was a nitpick. It makes as much difference to the premise of the argument as my spelling does. It doesn't matter.

 

[brighid]

Chekmate – Perhaps a better question for the theist might be – why do you choose to worship this particular version of God?

And although an argument can be made that one cannot truly know this God, there is alleged proof for His particular existence through the Bible (and other religious texts). Therefore, in a vain and albeit humanly limited attempt (the only method with which a human might ascertain ANY semblance of knowledge) to discern what is knowable about a god(s) it is only logical to posit why would a God desire the worship of his/her/it’s creation?

And according to the Christian Baptist faith why must one worship in the specific manner of the Christian Baptist? How does one conclude the proper manner to worship such a divine being? Even if the finite human being cannot every fully comprehend the full merits of this divine Creator we should strive to learn all that we can with the tools given to us by this Creator – should we not? Those tools would be our intellect, reason, logic and observational skills and if this Creator has left clues for us we should do our best to examine them in the best light of reason (as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. has suggested) in order that me might gain even the slightest bit of knowledge greater than what we currently posses. Surely, a God wishing His Creation to be more intimately acquainted with His existence would not begrudge one such things?

So, let us – for arguments sake discuss the possible reasons why a being, specifically the God of the JC faiths has a desire to be worshipped using the tools this God gave us to ascertain knowledge, shall we?

Brighid

 

[tyndale1946]

You believed in God before maybe you will again?... Only God knows! Who are we to judge you?... Brother Glen

[ March 04, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by chekmate:
Smoke Eater
That was a nitpick. It makes as much difference to the premise of the argument as my spelling does. It doesn't matter.

Actually, it matters a great deal.

You said that since God sends one to Hell based on their unbelief, it shows God has a preference for belief over unbelief.

You then go on to build your case based upon this premise.

Since we know that God doesn't send anyone to Hell based on their belief or unbelief, rather, that man is condemned to Hell as a natural consequence of his sin, you're starting from a false premise.

A false premise leads to a false conclusion.

Mike

(edited for grammer)

http://www.keylife.org

[ March 04, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[poikilotherm]

Apparently Human Sacrifice is OK:

Apparently illiteracy is too.

Gen.22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Was Isaac sacrificed?

Ex.22:29
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Was the offering of sons for sacrifice? Check Numbers 18.

Lev.27: 28-29
No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

This refers to those people condemned to death by the courts: death penalties cannot be redeemed by monetary payment.

Num.31:25-29
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

What is a heave offering? Do you know? (hint: it does not imply killing the offering)

2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.

So the Gibeonites were worshipping G-d?

Jg.11:29-40
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah.... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.

What are the laws of sactrifice as pertains to animals? Is a human suitable for sacrifice? What are the laws of purity for a priest? Can a priest or thealtar touch a corpse? What is the significance of Jephthah's ancestry? Can he perform sacrifice? Why do the maidens mourn for 4 days? Any clue? Thought not.

1 Kg.13:2
And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

The altar in question was not the altar of G-d in Jerusalem, but one of the "high places" : an altar to other deities in Bethel.

2 Kg.23:20
And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

He slaughtered the priests of other religions, and burned their bones on their altars, not on the altars of G-d. You can't make a sacrifice to G-d on the altars of another G-d. The worship of other G-ds was forbidden at that time. Hence these are not sacrifices, but executions.

So, god never gives bad advice?

I hope you are blushing! Where did you get this foolish list?

Next time, read the book.

[ March 04, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: poikilotherm ]

 

[poikilotherm]

Originally posted by lyra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poikilotherm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by chekmate:
When you say though that god doesn't so much need D to be worshipped, and he wants it, you are implying that he is unfullfilled. For something to become fullfilled it needs something. In this case, your love and worship.

And as I say, "a god in need is no god indeed"

This would be an interesting idea, if G-d were human. G-d isn't human, therefore, in the last analysis, the argument is irrelevant.

I think the problem is that, while anthropomorphisation sometimes gives insight, it can't be followed too far, and always must be acknowleged as anthropomorphisation, and nothing more. Its fun, but not substantial.</font>[/QUOTE]

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [ 1:26 Hebrew; Syriac [ all the wild animals ] ] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:25-27)

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:26-28)

If we were indeed created in God's own image, then we are like God, so why is it anthropomorphizing what chekmate is doing?</font>[/QUOTE]We are like G-d but we are not G-d. This is elementary.

Created any universes lately?

 

[poikilotherm]

Originally posted by chekmate:
That's the difference between me, an athiest, and many of you Christians. I AM willing to admit the possibility that I am wrong. All you have to do is give me a reason to, and I'll admit that I am wrong. I've had faith, and that didn't work out. Give me just one piece of empirical, unbiased proof and I'll believe.

Give me one piece of empirical unbiased proof to demonstrate that you are not a figment of my imagination, and I'll beleive you are real. In the meantime, you are clearly an hallucination.

 

[tulpje]

The Creed
As the head of the family should teach them in the simplest way to those in his household.

THE FIRST ARTICLE
(Creation)

I believe in God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

What does this mean?

I believe that God created me and all that exists, and that he gave me my body and soul, eyes, ears and all my members, my mind and all my abilities. And I believe that God still preserves me by richly and daily providing clothing and shoes, food and drink, house and home, spouse and children, land, cattle, and all I own, and all I need to keep my body and life. God also preserves me by defending me against all danger, guarding and protecting me from all evil. All this God does only because he is my good and merciful Father in heaven, and not because I have earned or deserved it. For all this I ought to thank and praise, to serve and obey him. This is most certainly true.

This is the important part:
All this God does only because he is my good and merciful Father in heaven, and not because I have earned or deserved it. For all this I ought to thank and praise, to serve and obey him. This is most certainly true.

With the love & peace that comes only through Christ Jesus

Mary

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by chekmate:
Post-it
I re-read my post, substituting myself in the places where it fits, and I don't know what you are talking about. Please elaborate.

If someone has a preference, then they want you to do something. If they want something, and they don't already have it, that would mean that they are unfulfilled. In order to become fulfilled, they would need to get what they want.

Having a desire/preference does not mean one "needs" the same.

Here is your argument using Chocolate and the Fallacy of Composite at work.

"If I prefer chocolate, then I want you to give me chocolate. If I have no chocolate and because I want you to give me chocolate, I am unfulfilled. In order for me to be fulfilled, I need you to give me chocolate. "

 

[tulpje]

poikilotherm, PLEASE stop writing God without the o in the center? It's blasphamy!

 

[Mike McK]

[ March 04, 2002, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[poikilotherm]

Originally posted by tulpje:
poikilotherm, PLEASE stop writing God without the o in the center? It's blasphamy!

Tulpje, the board doesn't have Hebrew text support, so I can't write His name properly. In the meantime, I'm afraid you will have to put up with me writing G-d's name in English as I see fit.

HaShem Yimloch l'olam va'ed!

PS: "Blasphemy", not "Blasphamy". The word should be rendered with a certain sense of rolling thunder, and while my own spelling is poor, I encourage you to practice your dramatic effects until they are letter perfect. Just a bit of friendly advice.

[ March 04, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: poikilotherm ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poikilotherm:

[qb]Smoke Eater: your posts up till now make it seem like you are a reasonable guy. This is the way I write G-d's name in English. Its the way many Jews write G-d's name in English. If that looks silly to you, well, so be it. Live with it.

I'm sorry, poikilotherm.

I wasn't trying to be insulting and didn't realize it came off that way.

I apologize and have erased the offending thread.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org