Does God need to be worshipped?

In your story, you gave us two assumptions. Nazi & Homosexuals. While both would pass as facts, you never gave us a fact for the non-existence of God. Yet in your conclusion, you assumed that because your parents, society and church were wrong about the first two, they must be wrong about the last (Existence of God.) non sequitur

Don't confuse my point of an invalid argument with the good choice you did make to question what you were told by these people.

But that was not my point. Your over-all argument - that you are an atheist - based on the invalid argument you provided us with, only proved that it is illogical for you to be an atheist.

 

Fallacy of Argumentum ad hominem
Sorry poikilotherm, you know the rules, Christianity is not wrong based on what certain people did or did not do. Your Argument Fails by rules of Logic which you should be well versed in.

 

Post It -

Please go back and read what I posted. I did not say that I became an atheist because my parents, the church and society were wrong about racial and sexual issues. I said these things led me to question whether or not they were wrong about other instances and after many years I came to the conclusion that I cannot intellectually or morally align myself with the God of the JC Bible. Therefore, based upon the evidence presented in the Bible I lack a belief in the JC God as being the creator of the Universe, etc.

Neither you, nor I can prove or disprove the existence of a being that is invisible and only reveals himself in dreams and "revelations." Therefore, I must use the evidence He has chosen to present for the actual existence of His being and that would be your Bible. I find it neither perfect, loving, consistent, honorable or exceptionally moral or unique. Therefore I am lead to believe that those disseminating the word of this God somehow got it wrong and therefore could not have been led by an omnimax God or that this God cannot be what He is said to be in the book, which is the only evidence of this particular deities existence. Hence, I am skeptical and remain open to any new and convincing evidence that might prove that an anthropomorphic, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, being of pure love, mercy, and grace exists.

Brighid
Brighid

 

Post It -

You are right about Poik's use of the Jewish Problem in reference to Martin Luther's comments on Grace. It's truly unforunate that a man who in one breath talk about the Grace of a loving God, can in the next breath say and do such vile things as Martin Luther said and did to the Jews. And although his comments about Jews do not falsify his comments about Grace it does speak to the potential credibility of his beliefs and whether or not this man was ever a man of God. Or if he was ever possessed of any knowledge of a god of love and grace.

I wonder, how can one talk about the all encompassing grace and love of a creator God and then speak about killing, ripping out of tongues and the "Jewish Problem" and still maintain credibility?

We have all seen the type of destruction such dispicable and immoral thinking has caused mankind through the preaching of hate for those who do not share our same beliefs. And if Martin Luther's God is the same God who inspired the works that Poik has factually quoted here - we should all run as fast as we can away from such works and search for the works that support a God of ubiquitous love, not one that loves only his followers and insights men to kill those who do not bow down and worship at his feet. I think the world has suffered enough from such thinking.

Brighid

[ March 06, 2002, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: brighid ]

 

That was my point exactly. You did not come to believe that there is no God because your parents etc were wrong about certain things, but rather you matured and learned to question everything yourself. Everyone goes through that as they grow up. It is a natural progression. Yet, in your story you made it sound as if they were wrong about some things, therefore they MUST be wrong about God.

At least you aren't blaming them for your conclusion that God doesn't exist. Do you blame them for their telling you that he does?
Their other prodigious’ were based on the times they lived in and they can't be held too harshly on those other beliefs either.

In 30 years, your children will not believe the horrible things that you and the rest of us in this country believe and promulgate, to us it is right (right now). Caution, your children may grow up, decide you were wrong about some things and become Christian.

 

Fallacy of Utter Obtuseness.

Did I say Christianity was wrong? No, I just said that Martin Luther was a violent bigot, and by implication his pious grace is piece of hypocrisy. Do you seek moral counsel from liars and hypocrits? Do you set a fox to guard the henhouse?

Lets see:

"A fox would make a good guard fo the henhouse"

No, that Fox has been killing my hens

"Ah ah. You know the rules. Thats the fallacy of Ad Hominem. You must examine the merits of the fox as a guard"

That stupid fox has been killing my hens!

"Ah, but he's obviously fast, and smart, and look at those teeth. Seems to me he could fight too. I think he'd make an excellent guard"

I don't care. He's been killing my hens!

"Why are you so hung up on him killing hens? Look at it objectively, using logic! "

Luther's antipathy towards Jews was not (as his apologists often say) an event that was late in his life. It is also rooted in his mode of interpretation of scripture, which is utterly opposed to Jewish tradition (Sola Scriptura is anathema to Rabbinic Judaism, the tradition from which Jesus and Paul emerged). Quoting the religious opinions of Luther to a Jew is like recommending the fox to guard his henhouse: his religion and his bigotry were two faces of the same man. His opinions are worthless to me, except as an example of what happens when one says "Oh, but my hate is Biblical, so its OK."

[ March 06, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: poikilotherm ]

 

Unfortunately, we all will at times follow a great man who sins, a man who opens doors the rest have not or can not. This man will ALWAYS have sin in his life. Just because Einstein was not a believer in a personal God does not mean that we don't learn those things from him he had to offer that no other human could at the time. Those where gifts from God to mankind, as was with Martin Luther. Until there comes another perfect man, one will always be able to find sin in all leaders and great men.

It sounds as if you are ready to throw out the whole man because he has some bad attributes, in his case bigotry and hatred, rather than take the gems sent from God to both the believer (Luther) and the non-believer (Einstein), both committers of sin.

 

No – I certainly don’t blame my parents for teaching me what they truly thought was correct. I hold no hostility toward my parents for any of the mistakes they made, and certainly not for bringing me up in their faith. I know my parents aren’t perfect and they made some pretty ridiculous mistakes, and we still don’t agree on many issues. I don’t blame for telling me about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy – even though I have matured to the point where I know that there are no such entities. I love both my mother and my father, even though at times they were pretty terrible parents (not making any reference to religion.)

I certainly hope that with each passing generation they learn to let go of myths and fairy tales as truth and value them only for the stories they tell about human life. And as science and technology advance I am confident that my son will someday have a difficult time believing that we ever thought or did things as we do now. Like oh my gosh – how did you ever live without a cell phone, or a lap top or something very futuristic that is not part of our daily lives yet. I remember thinking – how on Earth did my mother ever get by before the microwave!

Brighid

 

Still missing the point here.
1. I'm a Jew.
2. Luther was an anti-Semite.
3. Luthers anti-Semitism reached from the base of his personality out through into his personal religion.

I'm not saying "He is a sinner, don't listen to him." I'm saying: "His notion of religion is founded in part on hatred of mine." That's why the fox isn't a good guard for the henhouse. The fox eats hens. Luther hated Jews: our people, our religion. So Luther is supposed to be a good guide for me?

What is unclear about this? It is argumentum ad hominem, but there is NOTHING wrong with examining the moral nature of a moralist. Would you take "Bill Clinton's Guide to Sexual Ethics" seriously? C'mon. You would see it as a piece of hypocrisy.

 

Post it –

There is a HUGE difference between Einstein and Martin Luther. Not only in their ideologies but their contributions to society, even concerning their contributions in regards to religion. In the case of Martin Luther, it is difficult to read and accept the divine inspiration of his work once one has become acquainted with his less then savory opinions about Jews and his treatment of non-Protestants. And although each of us are “sinners” from the Christian perspective there are sins that are more grave then others. I would say it is far worse to insight hatred and call for the killing of those who don’t believe as you do, as opposed to simply not-believing. And reading the works of the two men and comparing them for their content and a clue as to their character will reveal two very different men. Einstein being on a plane far above that of Martin Luther.

I remember reading the works published by Martin Luther about Jews and some of her earlier works as well and I was absolutely appalled by what was contained in his later. What was the motivation for his former and later and what caused such a drastic change in this man of “God?” Unfortunately he does have a lot of Biblical fodder to lay the foundation for his opinions and this is disturbing. So, although one should not throw out the baby with the bath water, one should be a bit more hesitant to accept the ideas of love and grace from a man who is also so filled with hate and desire for murder and forced conversion.

Imagine for a moment this was a Muslim mullah or Iman calling for the same against the Christian, which in fact is taking place in some sects of Islam today. What level of confidence would you place on those sermons in which he preached love and the grace of god?

Brighid

 

How in the world does one become a jew/athiest?

I dunno. Ask one.

You are right about one thing. Jews do not worship the same god as I Christians. God presented himself as the Holy Trinity. If you do not worship this God you are worshiping a false god. The same goes for the Muslims. Just because they claim to worship the God of Abraham does not mean that we worship the same God.

I'm right about more than one thing, but not what you think.

John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

Thank you for quoting your scripture to me. I confess that again, I am not sure what you are trying to say, other than that you can type. I knew that.

Concerning Martin Luther being a protonazi, that is rubbish.

Never said he was. Maybe you could point out where I did? I said he was quoted in large type on the front page of every edition of a Nazi rag. That's fact, whether you like it or no.

He certainly did have some harsh words about the Jews.

Yep. He recommended maiming us.

He also had some equally harsh words concerning the pope. We believe that the pope is the antichrist. It's actually a "doctrine" of our church. Ask any Catholic here what he thinks of that!

Probably similar to what I think of Luther. Rubbish.

 

What relevance does the time period in which he wrote those works have on the his beliefs??

I believe Carl Sagan wrote Billions and Billions prior to his death and it was published posthumously, does that mean he didn't mean what he wrote?

Are you insinuating that as the time drew nearer to the time he believed he was going to meet his maker that something happened to change him from peaceful Christian to Jewish hatemonger? I think you will need to provide some factual examples of the state of his mental and physical health at the time he wrote those and how they affected his writing and the truth or falsity of those claims.

Brighid

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html

Martin Luther (1483-1546):
The Jews and Their Lies, excerpts (1543)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the beginning of his career it is often said that Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career:

The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew.

However, sometime before 1517, in his Letters to Spalatin, we can already see that Luther's hatred of Jews, best seen in tis 1543 letter, was not some affectation of old age, but was present very early on. Luther expected Jews to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against them.

It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Krystalnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text.

A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career: he was not a man to say "manure" when he meant "sh*t". We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseud-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.

None of this justifies what follows, but it may help to comprehend what is being written here.

The full text of this text is also available \----------------------------------------------------

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has aneasy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

****

He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuternomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Thoses villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the righ to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

Ah - such foreshadowing ... it seems some of his brethren did take his words seriously and defended it with "Gott mit Uns" on their belt buckles.

Brighid