Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

[SavedByGrace]

From what I have read on this site you are the one that does not allow God to be Sovereign. You want a god that will only do what you say he can do. Study your bible and perhaps you will finally understand who God really is and what He really wants.

Who?

 

[Silverhair]

All of you blame God for mans sin guys seek to put things completely backwards.
You profanely suggest a Holy ,Perfect, God can in any way be unjust and even sin.
Reformed persons start with the revealed truth of all of God's Holy attributes...He never acts inconsistent with His attributes.

We are not the ones the make these comments:

Iconoclast if something is not ordained to happen...it does not happen. Post # 58
Sin is ordained to take place.... post #59

It is your theology that makes God the author of sin. Not the bible nor those that do not hold to your views.

 

[Iconoclast]

The point being that Christians are moving away from Reformed theology.

There are three such churches in the area where I live. They have all lost at least 30-50 % of attendees over the last few years.

A Reformed friend of mine who spent many years in New England, said that the reformed churches were in decline.

I believe what you are describing is Apostasy. Rock bands, entertainment, gospel puppets and clowns is not maturing, but apostasy and not Christianity at all.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I believe what you are describing is Apostasy. Rock bands, entertainment, gospel puppets and clowns is not maturing, but apostasy and not Christianity at all.

Mark Driscoll and Alistair Begg are 2 Reformed pastors in the USA. both have bands in their churches. Are they Apostates?

 

[Silverhair]

Who?

I was referring to Austin & Iconoclast as those that deny the Sovereignty of God. They want to put Him in a box.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I was referring to Austin & Iconoclast as those that deny the Sovereignty of God. They want to put Him in a box.

Very true. This is the problem with the so called Reformed, who add and remove from the Bible to suit their warped theology. And then they try to make others who oppose their nonsense, to be deniers of Biblical Truth

 

[Silverhair]

It means to decree something. It does not mean that the person who ordains something is directly the cause of all the events that occur for it to come about. If I own a business, and I decide to open a branch in the next town over, I might first look for a manager who wants to manage the branch and when I find him I let him go to accomplish what I ordained. In this case. The manager wanted a chance to manage - I did not make him do it against his will, yet what I ordained came about.

In that sense God ordained that Adam fall. Adam did fall but he did so by his choice and free will. God did not make Adam sin and did not place Adam's hand on the fruit as he brought it to his mouth. Some Calvinists do make it seem that God did have his hands over Adams hands. That is what I don't agree with.

I agree that God did not make Adam sin, he had a free will. Where the problem comes in is that under Calvinist determinism and God ordaining/decreeing all things {WCF/LBCF} then that means Adam could only do what God had determined for him to do, as with all sin that we see.

God is sovereign and if in His sovereignty He wants to give man the free will to sin or to choose to trust in Christ Jesus for his salvation then who are you oh man to disagree with Him

 

[Mikey]

Mark Driscoll and Alistair Begg are 2 Reformed pastors in the USA. both have bands in their churches. Are they Apostates?

Mark Driscoll isn't reformed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Just why can't you guys who hold to reformed theology, honestly deal with the facts?

ORDAIN means to ORDER which is the same as CAUSE. And yet you continue to argue with me as though I invented the meanings!

If you can't understand this then you should relearn the English language

wrong;

PARAGRAPH 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin

nor hath fellowship with any therein;


2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,

but rather established;


3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.






1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27–28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3–5

 

[SavedByGrace]

Mark Driscoll isn't reformed.

Begg is though

East London Tabernacle in England had a Reformed pastor for about 30 years. I used to attend when I lived in London. He had a small worship band. He said that he was proud to be a 5 point Calvinist

 

[SavedByGrace]

wrong;

PARAGRAPH 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin

nor hath fellowship with any therein;


2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,

but rather established;


3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.






1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27–28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3–5

DECREE mean to CAUSE

 

[DaveXR650]

I agree that God did not make Adam sin, he had a free will. Where the problem comes in is that under Calvinist determinism and God ordaining/decreeing all things {WCF/LBCF} then that means Adam could only do what God had determined for him to do, as with all sin that we see.

That is a valid point. If you read Edwards or any discussion of this that goes beyond calling each other names you find this argument. I tend to think that God created Adam with the primary wish that Adam not sin. But the problem for my argument is that God is all knowing and all powerful and Adam did sin, yet God could have prevented it. One Calvinist argument is that God has two wills. He honestly did not want Adam to sin. But he also wanted to give Adam a truly free will. Being God, he knew Adam would sin (he knows everything) and thus the plan of the Fall, sending Christ, redeeming a multitude of people was already in place. This was God's sovereign will. Now, I think this is a fairly weak argument. But, and this is very important - for all of us on here who believe God is all knowing and all powerful we are left with the fact that Adam did sin. God either knew of it beforehand and allowed it anyway, or it took him by surprise and he reacted with the plan of redemption. I would make 2 points:

No non-Calvinist has been able to come up with a better explanation for God knowing something and allowing it to happen and letting it happen and not being somehow thought to "ordain" it.

Also, some Calvinists do go too far I think in describing events as being directly attributable to God. For instance, we live in a fallen world, of our own making. We die and have accidents. But if a plane crashes I don't think it's correct to automatically say "God crashed the plane". Some do, and I don't agree with them.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Silverhair,

We are not the ones the make these comments:

Iconoclast if something is not ordained to happen...it does not happen. Post # 58
Sin is ordained to take place.... post #59

It is your theology that makes God the author of sin. Not the bible nor those that do not hold to your views.

Did sin surprise God?
Could God not prevent the evil men?

The cross was ordained to take place.
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was not just relaxing , and God forced him to betray Jesus.
He did what he wanted to do, for 30 pieces of silver.

 

[Iconoclast]

DECREE mean to CAUSE

No..it does not mean to cause.

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,

 

[Iconoclast]

"DaveXR650,

That is a valid point.

It is not a valid point.

I tend to think that God created Adam with the primary wish that Adam not sin.

Does an omniscient God need to wish or hope, like the old Dusty Springfield song wishin and hopin?
Dusty Springfield - Wishin & Hopin 1964
Or does God execute His purpose exactly as He pleases?

But the problem for my argument is that God is all knowing and all powerful and Adam did sin, yet God could have prevented it.

You are drifting away from biblical revelation.
God could not have prevented it. His plan was perfect, or He would have had a different plan.
God never goes to plan B.

One Calvinist argument is that God has two wills. He honestly did not want Adam to sin. But he also wanted to give Adam a truly free will.

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? It does not say free will exists. It does not say God wanted, it said God created....not wanted and did not.

[QUOTE]Being God, he knew Adam would sin (he knows everything) and thus the plan of the Fall, sending Christ, redeeming a multitude of people was already in place. This was God's sovereign will.But, and this is very important - for all of us on here who believe God is all knowing and all powerful we are left with the fact that Adam did sin. [/QUOTE]

All have to face this.

[QUOTE]God either knew of it beforehand and allowed it anyway, or it took him by surprise and he reacted with the plan of redemption. [/QUOTE]
No Calvinist or biblical Christian would even suggest God was "taken by Surprise"???This is carnal reasoning and totally unscriptural.

No non-Calvinist has been able to come up with a better explanation for God knowing something and allowing it to happen and letting it happen and not being somehow thought to "ordain" it.[/QUOTE]

That is why carnal reasoning is to be rejected.

Also, some Calvinists do go too far I think in describing events as being directly attributable to God.

No they do not...they are completely biblical saying exactly that.

For instance, we live in a fallen world, of our own making.

We live in a world under the curse of God because of original sin.

We die and have accidents.

We die, but there are no accidents. A collision is under the providence of God. If a person dies in a collision, that was their appointed time to die..."not an accident"
3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?

10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

But if a plane crashes I don't think it's correct to automatically say "God crashed the plane". Some do, and I don't agree with them.

So, you would suggest God was surprised by such an event?
God providentially controls all things.
148 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:

12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.

 

[Mikey]

I have always believed that the God of the Bible is

Sovereign
Omniscience
Omnipresent
The Saviour of the entire human race
That the Holy Bible is the Infallible Inerrant Perfect Word of God
Salvation is only possible by the sinner repenting of their sins and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

Etc etc

Since you agree that God is omniscient and omnipresent you must believe that God knew that a sin would take place, that He had the power to prevent that sin from happening but decided not to prevent it, thus determined that sin would take place.

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Silverhair,




Did sin surprise God?
Could God not prevent the evil men?

The cross was ordained to take place.
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was not just relaxing , and God forced him to betray Jesus.
He did what he wanted to do, for 30 pieces of silver.

Could God have destroyed the devil after he rebelled? Yes, but in His I Infinite Wisdom allowed the devil to live

Your reasoning is MOOT

 

[SavedByGrace]

Since you agree that God is omniscient and omnipresent you must believe that God knew that a sin would take place, that He had the power to prevent that sin from happening but decided not to prevent it, thus determined that sin would take place.

NEVER determined. It is against His Holy Nature

 

[Mikey]

Begg is though

East London Tabernacle in England had a Reformed pastor for about 30 years. I used to attend when I lived in London. He had a small worship band. He said that he was proud to be a 5 point Calvinist

you completely misuderstood what Iconoclast was saying. Rock band =/= small worship band.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No..it does not mean to cause.

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,

PLEASE learn the English language