• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I know this is going to sound like I'm being a smart aleck but the offer is genuine and whether it be a Bible verse or a sermon or a warning from a friend sharing the gospel - if it turns out that the person gets saved then those offers were the means for it to happen. Remember, when a Calvinist talks about someone being "unable" to choose Christ the inability is moral in nature. In other words the person "can't " come to Christ only because he won't. Moral inability is just as deadly as physical inability if it keeps you from believing in Christ but in reality it's a case where if anything God is respecting your sovereign will. If God were to say "all you have to do is leap over the church" then you could claim God was unjust if you can't do it. But if our natural tendency is to reject God because we want to then that kind of inability is our fault, not God's.

I agree that the offer form God is genuine, where the problem comes in is that under the Calvinist view you have to ask just how genuine is it. You say that "when a Calvinist talks about someone being "unable" to choose Christ the inability is moral in nature." There I have to disagree with you.
Just look at what that theology teaches:
Unconditional Election: Faith is not required
Limited Atonement: Jesus paid only for those few elect
Irresistible Grace: The elect have no choice about being elect

What God said was "all you have to do is trust in my son" that is the one condition. Under Calvinism you have to hope that you are one of the lucky ones that God chose but you can never be sure. Our ability or inability to trust in God has no real meaning in Calvinism but it does in the bible.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your the one that said sin was lurking there so my question for you is where do that lurking sin come from? Surely you can answer that can't you?

Lucifer is the embodiment of sin.

it is my opinion, that Lucifer was most interested in the creation and that especially of Adam and Eve.

So certainly, I consider Lucifer skulking about in the unseen and lurking to find weakness.

Does he not do that even to this day, on the prowl, lurking, skulking, ready to pounce on the weak, sickly, new born, old and feeble, …
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I think it's probably the best answer. As far as I can tell from any post I've ever seen you put on here there is nothing wrong with your faith. I personally think these issues are secondary and enjoy the conversation.

Thank you I enjoy a good discussion also. We are Christian brothers and like brothers at times we disagree.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God is sovereign over His sovereignty which means He can do as He pleases. Like give man a real free will. You say that God is sovereign and then you limit what He can do.

There is neither a logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign choice could not allow and give creatures made in His image the real moral freedom to make real moral choices.

You keep claiming that I am something that I have told you more than once that I am not so this just shows that you are acting like a troll. You really a trying to deal with so it is best if I just ignore you.
I would agree with what you posted.

God does implant His law into every human heart (Romans), however just as in the opening of John, Folks turn away (John 1).

Therefore, when it comes to choices that are moral, good, right, …they may certainly exercise the will.

However, when it comes to choices that pertain to that which is perfect, then everyone has come short (Romans).

Depravity, is the disability (inability) to achieve God’s standard of righteousness. “There is none righteous, not even a single one” (my paraphrased version).
 

Mikey

Active Member
God is sovereign over His sovereignty which means He can do as He pleases. Like give man a real free will. You say that God is sovereign and then you limit what He can do.

There is neither a logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign choice could not allow and give creatures made in His image the real moral freedom to make real moral choices.

God cannot sovereignly give up his sovereignty, thus making Himself nolonger sovereign. God was/is/forever soverign.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
This is purely speculation on my part, for humans were made a bit lower then angels. Me a great amount less!

Humans tend to think and construct reasoning using what little capacity that we have, and we also tend to put that which pertains to the Spiritual forces and rules in human concepts. This can lead to some very wrong conceptions, and more often one is better to agree with Scriptures and move on.

For example, when arguing with Lucifer over the body of Moses, we read that the God’s Angel could not rely upon his own authority but said, “the Lord rebuke you.” So the command structure of God’s creation is not as we might consider, but perhaps beyond any human understanding.

In Daniel we read how an angel was prevented from coming to Daniel for some time, by Lucifer or at least his comrade(s).

Because Lucifer was made by God, and had the greatest authority second only to God, then I doubt that God did not give him decision making ability along with untold power over all God’s creation. An earthly example might be like Joseph in Potipher’s house.

One may speculate about the ability and authority of Lucifer, such as some say he cannot be in two places at once as God can, but that isn’t found in Scriptures, and our only weapon is the Word of God.

The Scriptures present that the human will is corrupt with the desires of earthly matters. That there is a bondage of the human will to that of slavery. So, in truth humans have no pure freedom of the will, but can choose that which is good at best.


Therefore, I would imagine that Lucifer, as the kingdom holder of which he showed example to the Christ, has as evil and depraved will as a being could have, for did not Christ say of those religious righteous, “You are of your father, the devil.”

It is certainly seen in the revelations just the kind of show Lucifer can put on.

I agree that it is just speculation re Lucifer but I do think he would have had a limited freewill just as we have. I can not envision that God would want His creation to just be mindless robots.

God loves us and wants us to love Him in return but for anyone to truly love requires the ability to not love. That is one of the reasons I hold to a free will view.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
That's the whole point. You have just repeated Jonathan Edwards argument almost word for word. Except that he would say that foreknowledge, when combined with absolute power to stop something or allow it IS in a sense "foreordaining". And as everyone can see - you cannot come up with an alternate argument. You have taken something that is impossible for us to understand and without offering any helpful explanation - blame it on Calvinism.
Or do what atheist do and blame God for everything. That is how generalized they make it. No reasoning but, God did it. Thus they reject God because God is equally good and evil and thus cancels out God altogether.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree that it is just speculation re Lucifer but I do think he would have had a limited freewill just as we have. I can not envision that God would want His creation to just be mindless robots.

God loves us and wants us to love Him in return but for anyone to truly love requires the ability to not love. That is one of the reasons I hold to a free will view.

There was a day when I have agreed.

The cattle on a Texas ranch have freedom of the will, or do they?

They may certainly journey as they choose, when they choose, but are they really endowed with freedom of the will?

One may rightly say we are not cattle, yet what freedom do we have from our own abilities? Can we by thoughts add hair or height? Can we take wings and fly as the eagle? Can we control the forces of nature by our words? Can we by our will declare John 1 does not apply and by force of will cause God to find us worthy of redemption?

Freedom of the will? Freedom to do what? Make choices? Certainly. Attain righteousness, The Scriptures says no.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
I have admitted that some of the Calvinists, in trying to explain things like this have gone too far in making God the direct cause of all evil. I think this is especially true nowadays when everyone has to write in such a way that it can be read in 5 minutes or less. There is a reason guys like Edwards went on and on when trying to explain hard issues.

But Edwards made a point that I have never heard any non-Calvinist answer. He said that foreknowledge of something that is going to happen for sure, in the case of an all powerful being, by definition means that that being has in a sense foreordained that it happen. Call it rubbish if you want but still no answer to this has been offered.
If you cannot come up with some answer short of rubbish in capital letters then this is checkmate. And don't feel bad. Remember that Edwards was a philosopher as well as a preacher and church leader. This is philosophy. In the end, we all know the world we live in and how it works, yet we all believe God is in control. All of our explanations will fall short.
If that were the case just letting something happen is the same as decreeing it. Then God did not pre-ordain anything. He could just sit back and watch it happen and do nothing.

Putting the tree in the Garden was not a decree to sin. It was a decree to avoid sin.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Or do what atheist do and blame God for everything. That is how generalized they make it. No reasoning but, God did it. Thus they reject God because God is equally good and evil and thus cancels out God altogether.
Was Adam an atheist? No, of course not.

what I’m suggesting is that not only atheists, but most blame God. Or they blame the devil.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Why do you slander me by saying that I am an Open Theist. Would you like me to call you a non bible believing Calvinist.
You do not like the idea that anyone would dare question your misunderstanding of scripture. Your errors have been pointed out to you many times but you respond like a child with a ya but type comment. And then you wonder why people put you on ignore.
I apologize. I thought you had declared yourself an open theist. Since you say you are not, I will stop stating such about you.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I agree that the offer form God is genuine, where the problem comes in is that under the Calvinist view you have to ask just how genuine is it. You say that "when a Calvinist talks about someone being "unable" to choose Christ the inability is moral in nature." There I have to disagree with you.
Just look at what that theology teaches:
Unconditional Election: Faith is not required
Limited Atonement: Jesus paid only for those few elect
Irresistible Grace: The elect have no choice about being elect

What God said was "all you have to do is trust in my son" that is the one condition. Under Calvinism you have to hope that you are one of the lucky ones that God chose but you can never be sure. Our ability or inability to trust in God has no real meaning in Calvinism but it does in the bible.
Another twisting and reinterpreted reinterpretation from you. Care to twist again? It is amazing to see you mis-state and falsely represent theology you despise. But, keep it up so we all get to see you squirm.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I would agree with what you posted.

God does implant His law into every human heart (Romans), however just as in the opening of John, Folks turn away (John 1).

Therefore, when it comes to choices that are moral, good, right, …they may certainly exercise the will.

However, when it comes to choices that pertain to that which is perfect, then everyone has come short (Romans).

Depravity, is the disability (inability) to achieve God’s standard of righteousness. “There is none righteous, not even a single one” (my paraphrased version).

Now I have to disagree with your view of disability (inability) man has been given the ability to trust in Christ Jesus or all the IF / THEN verses are moot and God is just being disingenuous. And we know God is not that.
The verses that you are referring to are a midrash. These 9 verses [Rom 3:10-18] are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.
The bible is clear that God expects man to make a choice, why do you not see this.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I apologize. I thought you had declared yourself an open theist. Since you say you are not, I will stop stating such about you.

Thank you. We will continue to disagree but we should not have to be disagreeable in doing so.
 
Last edited:

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Another twisting and reinterpreted reinterpretation from you. Care to twist again? It is amazing to see you mis-state and falsely represent theology you despise. But, keep it up so we all get to see you squirm.

Wrong I do not despise Calvinism I just think that it is wrong in how it presents salvation etc. By the way I do not squirm as I am quite comfortable where I stand in my theology.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
There was a day when I have agreed.

The cattle on a Texas ranch have freedom of the will, or do they?

They may certainly journey as they choose, when they choose, but are they really endowed with freedom of the will?

One may rightly say we are not cattle, yet what freedom do we have from our own abilities? Can we by thoughts add hair or height? Can we take wings and fly as the eagle? Can we control the forces of nature by our words? Can we by our will declare John 1 does not apply and by force of will cause God to find us worthy of redemption?

Freedom of the will? Freedom to do what? Make choices? Certainly. Attain righteousness, The Scriptures says no.

A man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from cancelling his guilt (Rom_3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

The Bible is clear that not only do we have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Mat_3:2; Mat_4:17; Act_3:19; 1Jn_3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Christ Jesus pointed out the problem when He told some unbelievers, “you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life” (Joh_5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; it was not that they could not it was that they would not. Obviously Christ Jesus thought those men could make a real choice.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I have admitted that some of the Calvinists, in trying to explain things like this have gone too far in making God the direct cause of all evil. I think this is especially true nowadays when everyone has to write in such a way that it can be read in 5 minutes or less. There is a reason guys like Edwards went on and on when trying to explain hard issues.

But Edwards made a point that I have never heard any non-Calvinist answer. He said that foreknowledge of something that is going to happen for sure, in the case of an all powerful being, by definition means that that being has in a sense foreordained that it happen. Call it rubbish if you want but still no answer to this has been offered.
If you cannot come up with some answer short of rubbish in capital letters then this is checkmate. And don't feel bad. Remember that Edwards was a philosopher as well as a preacher and church leader. This is philosophy. In the end, we all know the world we live in and how it works, yet we all believe God is in control. All of our explanations will fall short.

Dave I can agree with what Edwards said to a point. Does God have absolute foreknowledge? Yes. Does that mean that in some way He has ordained whatever happens to happen? No.

Now think this through, if what Edwards said were true then it would require that God ordains not just the good but also the bad. The salvation and the condemning of every soul.

Knowing that something will happen does not require that He make it happen. Remember God is outside of time He sees the end from the beginning so He does not have to ordain anything in order to know that it happens.

God has a plan for the salvation of His creation. The fact that we have a free will does not and cannot alter the outcome of His plan.

I think that Edwards was looking through a tinted lens when he made those comments.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Nope
Humans are, by nature, sinful beings. When Adam and Eve were about to sin, God made the decision to allow it to happen. His order was to allow evil to take root in Adam and Eve. It was not an order to cause it. Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve.

This whole notion of God causing, when He ordains is just your own foolishness and ignorance speaking.

But, who am I to keep you from stomping around and pouting. Have at it if you must.
Nope, sin was not lurking. The knowledge of good and evil is not sin lurking. That is accepting the lie of the Serpent, himself. All Satan knew was what Adam knew. The day Adam disobeyed was the day Adam would die. Yet Satan lied and said surely one would not die. None of creation were aware of sin prior to Adam. Satan knew about rebellion and his angels locked up in the pit. Perhaps he thought Adam and Eve would end up there as well? Paul explains: Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

So no sin and no knowledge of sin.

You do realize that it was Adam's disobedience and physical death that allowed us to experience sin? As sons of God we could not experience sin. Sin is not a thing nor something created. Sin is the experience of knowing good and evil itself. Sin is the experience and death by sin the punishment of Adam's disobedience.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Nope, sin was not lurking. The knowledge of good and evil is not sin lurking. That is accepting the lie of the Serpent, himself. All Satan knew was what Adam knew. The day Adam disobeyed was the day Adam would die. Yet Satan lied and said surely one would not die. None of creation were aware of sin prior to Adam. Satan knew about rebellion and his angels locked up in the pit. Perhaps he thought Adam and Eve would end up there as well? Paul explains: Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

So no sin and no knowledge of sin.

You do realize that it was Adam's disobedience and physical death that allowed us to experience sin? As sons of God we could not experience sin. Sin is not a thing nor something created. Sin is the experience of knowing good and evil itself. Sin is the experience and death by sin the punishment of Adam's disobedience.
My thought on sin lurking is best stated by James.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
~ James 1:13-15
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top