Does God Prevent Some from Hearing The Gospel?

[SavedByGrace]

Obedience to the King.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Do you see the command as well as the Sovereign work of God?

If you cannot accept what God reveals in His word because you have created your own version, that is something in which you will answer to God.

Says you!

 

[AustinC]

Says you!

My goodness, I just shared two passages from God's word and you respond with "says you."

Your heart is shut to what you refuse. This is solely between you and God. Moreso, others have responded and shared even more scripture.

I am confident our King will correct you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

My goodness, I just shared two passages from God's word and you respond with "says you."

Your heart is shut to what you refuse. This is solely between you and God. Moreso, others have responded and shared even more scripture.

I am confident our King will correct you.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Marooncat79]

I never dobut that salvation, from start to finish, IS the Work of God: the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. As NO human being can ever, in and of themselves even desire to be saved! The initial "conviction" and thereafter, is God the Holy Spirit, though this can be "rejected" by the person.

How? The new birth is something God does to us and for us in order that we might be saved. The new birth is a change in the persons heart that awakens them to the truth of the Gospel.

Once we are born again, repentance and faith will without a doubt result unto salvation

Have you ever read Daniel 4 about what happened to an arrogant King? God made him live like a beast of the field for 7 yrs. God then changed his heart again

 

[SavedByGrace]

How? The new birth is something God does to us and for us in order that we might be saved. The new birth is a change in the persons heart that awakens them to the truth of the Gospel.

Once we are born again, repentance and faith will without a doubt result unto salvation

Have you ever read Daniel 4 about what happened to an arrogant King? God made him live like a beast of the field for 7 yrs. God then changed his heart again

This new theology is so very unbiblical. How can anyone be born again before they repent

 

[AustinC]

This new theology is so very unbiblical. How can anyone be born again before they repent

You sound like Nicodemus...

John 3:1-12
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Grace is not a new theology.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You sound like Nicodemus...

John 3:1-12
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Wonderful passage from the Infallible Word of God

 

[Dave G]

This new theology is so very unbiblical.

It's not new, SBG.
This has been around since Moses ( and long before him ) and David.
See Exodus 33:19 and Psalms 65:4.

In the centuries since Christ ascended,
the scholar Origen wrote of those who taught God's salvation of sinners by strictly His own will and choice, and labeled them as heretics...
as did the Council of Trent in it Sixth Session, "On Justification" in 1563.

In later years, John Wesley viciously attacked it ( as well as failing to heed the Lord's commandments about not speaking evil of men by attacking Augustus Toplady in print and in sermons, personally ), and many have done so since then.

With such a huge roster of relatively recent opponents ( including the largest body of baptized adherents in a single institution ), I can see why you'd call it "new", my friend.
But I can assure you, it's not new, and the Lord Himself taught it as well as Peter and Paul.

Please refer to John 6, John 8, John 10 and John 17, as well as 1 Peter, Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2, and the 2nd letter to Timothy among others.

How can anyone be born again before they repent

" But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Remember when you said that God can do anything that He wishes?

God is God, and therefore is within His own rights, to do as He pleases.

He can and does change hearts without our permission ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

 

[SavedByGrace]

He can and does change hearts without our permission

then we are no more than mere fatalistic machines! The Bible is very much against this!

 

[Dave G]

then we are no more than mere fatalistic machines!

Respectfully,
I was under the impression that you believed that God can do whatever He wishes.
Would you clarify that, please?

On the one hand you state that He can, and then you seem to object to it.
I'm getting a bit confused, sir.
In addition, the Bible does indeed teach that men are fully responsible for their sins and are not fatalistic machines, as you seem to think that I am stating.
How is it that you come to such a conclusion, if I may ask?

Do you somehow think that He owes us a chance to repent before He judges us for those sins?
Case-in-point, Sodom and Gomorrah...no preachers were sent.
Another one: Jericho...no preachers were sent, yet Rahab and her family were saved ( see Joshua 2, Hebrews 11 ).

In fact, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God promises to grant us an extension on His judgment in the hope that we will repent, as a race.
Rather, I see Him reserving people for that judgment ( 2 Peter 2, Jude 1:4-12 ).

" For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" ( 2 Peter 2:4 ) <--- The angels that fell.

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time." <----- False teachers.

" And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." ( Jude 1:6 ) <----- Fallen angels.

" These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." Jude 1:12-13 ). <------- Again, false teachers.

 

[SavedByGrace]

you believed that God can do whatever He wishes

I never doubted this. BUT, He has in His Infinite Wisdom, determined to save by the foolishness of preching, those who will hear and repent and believe! You say, "the Bible does indeed teach that men are fully responsible for their sins". This must make humans "reasonable" beings, which must include "free will"!

 

[Dave G]

I never doubted this. BUT, He has in His Infinite Wisdom, determined to save by the foolishness of preching, those who will hear and repent and believe!

Amen, and I quite agree with you here.

You say, "the Bible does indeed teach that men are fully responsible for their sins".

Yes, I did.
I can show you the Scriptural support that I use for that, if you would like.

Romans 2 is but one place.

This must make humans "reasonable" beings, which must include "free will"!

Where is it that mankind was ever said to be reasonable towards the Lord, except if they were already the recipients of His grace?
I'll need to see some Scriptural support for this, please.

Also,
Where do you see that man's will is in anything but a willful and rebellious shambles, and men have become haters of God ( Romans 1:30 ), will not come to Christ that they might have life ( John 3:19-20, John 5:40 ) and hate God's own children because they hate Him and His Son ( John 15:18 )?

Given these ( and many more ), it looks to me that man's so-called free will isn't as free as many people seem to believe.
Rather, it's quite biased against the Lord...
Which to me, makes it a bit difficult to sit down and reason together with Him.

 

[Marooncat79]

How can we call upon a God whom we have not believed. Romans 10:14

Prime text for regeneration predeeding faith. It would make no sense to call on a God who is unknown to us by faith!

 

[JonC]

then we are no more than mere fatalistic machines! The Bible is very much against this!

The issue is that the Hebrew religion (and much of Christianity) can accept human free-will and divine sovereignty without being concerned about how they fit together. At one time God was viewed so much above man that this was not really an issue.

 

[tyndale1946]

How can we call upon a God whom we have not believed. Romans 10:14

Prime text for regeneration predeeding faith. It would make no sense to call on a God who is unknown to us by faith!

EXACTLY!!!... When Jesus called Lazarus, Lazarus came forth, now could Lazarus come forth being dead, there being no change in Lazarus?... The same divine power that the Lord used to call Lazarus from the dead, is the same divine power used to quicken the dead, to newness in life...The Lord calls those dead in trespasses and sin after the man is regenerated, after a change within to enable the called to respond to it... No change of heart no call... No birth... No call... The Holy Spirit alone is the one that initiate the call in all... The way some of you brethren talk the Holy Spirit is in the unemployment line.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Brother Glen

 

[Brightfame52]

There are some who believe that the Gospel Message is only understood by the "elect", while God has hidden this from those who are the "non-elect", as they are not chosen unto salvation. The passage in Isaiah 6, and its quotations in the New Testament, is much used to show this. But, as we shall see from the evidence of Scriprure itself, this is not the case.

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” (Isaiah 6:9-10) KJV

In the Hebrew there are a number of “imperatives” used, which are commands or instructions.

“Go..tell…make the hearts of these people fat...make their ears heavy…shut their eyes”, etc, etc.

The verbs here are in the second person, singular, and of the imperative mode, so that Isaiah is Commanded to perform the actions named.

John, in His Gospel quotes these words from Isaiah, in this form;

“But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” (John 12:38-40)

In John’s Gospel in the Greek, which differs from both the Hebrew, as well as the (LXX), we have the 3rd person, singular, and in the indicative mood, thereby making the actions refer directly to God, and not the Prophet Isaiah, as it is in the Hebrew OT passage.

Now, when the passage from Isaiah is used by the Lord Jesus Christ, as in Matthew. He does not say the same that John does, by making the actions refer to God. Or, as the Hebrew has it, where Isaiah is the one to take the actions. Instead, the passage in Matthew, (and again in Acts 28, where Paul quotes Isaiah) Jesus uses a completely different text of Isaiah. Here is Matthew:

“And the disciples came and said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? He answered and said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” (Matthew 13:10-15)

In Matthew, the Greek, as in Acts 28:25-28, it is quite different, and not quoted from the Hebrew, but agrees with the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX), where the verbs are in the 3rd person, plural, and of the indicative mood, so that it is the people themselves, who perform the actions named. In verse 13, Jesus says, “hoti”, (because, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because”), which is in response to the peoples hardness; and not “hina” (in order that, “so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive”), as used by Mark and Luke, as the intended cause.

Here are the words in the LXX:

“And he said, “Go, and say to this people: ‘You will listen by listening, but you will not understand, and looking you will look, but you will not perceive.’ For this people’s heart has grown fat, and with their ears they have heard heavily, and they have shut their eyes so that they might not see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn—and I would heal them.” (LXX)

Jesus, in not using the Hebrew of Isaiah as we know it, has changed the actions of the passage, from a direct Command to the Prophet Isaiah, himself to perform; or, what John says, whereby it is God Who performs the actions. Instead, what Jesus has done, is to make the hearers themselves the causers of their own actions, “their eyes they have closed”. It is the wilful rejection of the preaching of the Gospel Message, by some of those who hear it, that damns them, and has nothing to do with God in any way preventing any from “hearing and believing”.

Three passages in the New Testament make this very clear.

John 5:39-40, “ Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And you will not come to me, that ye may have life”.

Not, that they “cannot come”, as though prevented by some external force.

Acts 13:46, “And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles”.

Again, it was the Jews who rejected the Gospel Message, and considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. Not God, or anyone else. These are self-actions.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, “and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Here we have those who hear the Truth of the Gospel Message, that is for their salvation, but themselves refuse to accept this Truth, and thrust it from them, as in Acts 13:46. It is then, that God “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion”, so that they believe their lies. These refused to believe the Gospel Message, because their “pleasure” was in their unrighteous deeds of darkness, that is, their sinful lives!

The quotation in Mark’s Gospel is quite different to any of the other times this passage from Isaiah is quoted in the New Testament.

“But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’ ” (Mark 4:10-12)

The passage in Mark’s Gospel, is alone of the Four Gospels, and Acts, where it says, “Lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them. ”. Which is following neither the Hebrew, nor the LXX. Mark’s quote is more in agreement with the Aramaic Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel, where we read, “and repent, and it shall be forgiven them.”.

“And He said, Go, and tell this people, who are diligently hearing, but understand not, and see diligently, but know not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and darken their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and repent, and it shall be forgiven them.” (Targum)

It doesn't matter the people are going to do what God has determined. Just like pharaoh, he voluntarily harden his heart because God had determined to harden it first. Man will acquise to the Sovereign will and work of God.

 

[Marooncat79]

It doesn't matter the people are going to do what God has determined. Just like pharaoh, he voluntarily harden his heart because God had determined to harden it first. Man will acquise to the Sovereign will and work of God.

Yes, exactly. Again, see Daniel 4

 

[SavedByGrace]

It doesn't matter the people are going to do what God has determined. Just like pharaoh, he voluntarily harden his heart because God had determined to harden it first. Man will acquise to the Sovereign will and work of God.

Complete theological nonsense

 

[Brightfame52]

Complete theological nonsense

No its God sense !

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace :
One thing I'd like to correct is my post in which I made this statement...

In later years, John Wesley viciously attacked it ( as well as failing to heed the Lord's commandments about not speaking evil of men by attacking Augustus Toplady in print and in sermons, personally ), and many have done so since then.

I am in error with what I have posted in the parentheses...
As far as I am aware, it has never been firmly established or substantiated that Mr. Wesley personally attacked Mr. Toplady in print and in his sermons.