Does God really ever change His own mind?

[HankD]

NKJV Genesis 6:7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Or are the references to it in the Bible just applying human like responses to God in order to have us understand Him more fully?

God can never change His mind. Either He would have to change it from worse to better or from better to worse, either of which is impossible.
However, God sometimes does new things (cf. Isaiah 43:18-19), but such things were planned by Him in eternity (cf. Isaiah 46:8-11). There are certainly verses in the Bible that make it seem as if God repents of certain actions or changes His mind. In 1 Samuel 15:11, He says, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king....." But in the very same chapter (v.29), Samuel tells Saul, "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man that He should relent." The words translated in the NKJV as 'regret' and 'relent' are the same word in Hebrew (nacham).

What are we to make of this? That God does not desire the death of the wicked even though He has decreed it. That He can regret (take no pleasure in) certain things which He will nonetheless bring about. More details on the immutability and simplicity of God can be found in any good, conservative Systematic Theology, but there is an excellent recent book, written by a baptist called All that is in God' by James Dolezal (Reformation Heritage Books, 2017) which is well worth reading.

 

[Rippon2]

This falls under the doctrine of Impassibility.

"Impassibility is that divine attribute whereby God is said not to experience inner emotional changes of state, whether enacted freely from within or effected by his relationship to and interaction with human beings and created order." (Thomas Weinandy)

God speaks in the Scriptures with accommodating language.

Language about God falls under either proper prediction or improper predication.

Proper predication deals with elements that are of the very essence of God such as his love, mercy, holiness and eternality.

Improper predication is that which is figuratively predicated of God:
1) Anthropomorphic i.e. eyes, wings, bowls, nose ears etc.
2) Anthropopathic : refers to the figurative use of emotions and passions to describe God (e.g. God suffering, grieving, repenting, regretting, being frustrated, etc.)

All of the above is a very brief summary of one third of last week's adult Sunday school lesson.

More to come.

 

[MartyF]

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:10-12 NLT
But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. [11] No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. [12] And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

Keep on adding context - don't stop. And you don't need to put things in all caps to try to change what the Bible says. Just use regular reading comprehension.

Paul is not saying that God is completely incomprehensible and no one can understand any aspect of God. He is saying that one can't understand God through human wisdom like this:

Immutability is stated in systematic theology textbooks as one of the key attributes of God. If correct this answers the original question. If incorrect, is there a theological textbook that says or suggests this, apart from works by the generally rejected and possibly heretical Open Theism crowd?

Understanding about God is not obtained through a popularity contest or through books of human wisdom.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NLT
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. [17] God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

That doesn't mean I think I know everything about God, but I do believe that the Bible - including the Old Testament - is an accurate representation of who God is and what he is like. I'm not going to resort to saying that God was speaking down to Moses and that the Old Testament is simply like the babbling of nursemaids.

 

[Rippon2]

"Properly God cannot repent, Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:11, 9, because he is unchangeable in his nature and counsels, 3:6; James 1:17, and perfectly wise, and constantly happy, and therefore not liable to any grief or disappointment." (Matthew Poole)

"The repentance which is here ascribed to God does not properly belong to him, but has reference to our understanding of him. For since we cannot comprehend him as he is, necessary that, for our sake, he should, in a certain sense, transform himself." (John Calvin)

"...not that repentance, properly speaking, can fall upon God, for he never changes his mind or alters his purposes, though he sometimes changes the course and dispensations of his providence." (John Gill)

 

[Yeshua1]

God can never change His mind. Either He would have to change it from worse to better or from better to worse, either of which is impossible.
However, God sometimes does new things (cf. Isaiah 43:18-19), but such things were planned by Him in eternity (cf. Isaiah 46:8-11). There are certainly verses in the Bible that make it seem as if God repents of certain actions or changes His mind. In 1 Samuel 15:11, He says, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king....." But in the very same chapter (v.29), Samuel tells Saul, "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man that He should relent." The words translated in the NKJV as 'regret' and 'relent' are the same word in Hebrew (nacham).

What are we to make of this? That God does not desire the death of the wicked even though He has decreed it. That He can regret (take no pleasure in) certain things which He will nonetheless bring about. More details on the immutability and simplicity of God can be found in any good, conservative Systematic Theology, but there is an excellent recent book, written by a baptist called All that is in God' by James Dolezal (Reformation Heritage Books, 2017) which is well worth reading.

So this would indeed seem to be that God in order to get down to our puny levels had to employ human like descriptions to himself, but that was not strictly what was really happening, as in he relented, he repented etc?

 

[37818]

Or are the references to it in the Bible just applying human like responses to God in order to have us understand Him more fully?

I am of the view point this has to do with the Son of God, not the Father. With creation not eternity. Not the infinite and uncaused. Why? God who is fully omniscient deals with us only though His Son.

 

[JonC]

Keep on adding context - don't stop. And you don't need to put things in all caps to try to change what the Bible says. Just use regular reading comprehension

lol.... The Bible has it in all caps to indicate it is an OT reference. I'm just too lazy to un-cap the text.

 

[37818]

NKJV Genesis 6:7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.

That was the Son. John 1:2-3.

 

[George Antonios]

Much to the horror of those who limit God’s mind and actions to a linear mathematical formula, the answer is “yes”, God can change his mind. That is, if you believe his own words as they stand, rather than philosophizing them or reinterpreting them out of existence in your effort to help God out.
That God repents him of certain things does not mean that he does not know the future, and that he makes mistakes then corrects himself. It means that, despite being all-knowing and outside of time, he can nevertheless allow himself to experience time with all its attendant implications of processing and discovery – such as when he sat back to see what Adam would call the beasts (Gen.2:19) or asked the council of heaven who would persuade Ahab to go to battle and how he would be persuaded (1Ki.22:19-22).
However, when it comes to an unqualified word of promise, God never changes his mind, as it is written: Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? And again: Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:.
We say “unqualified” because often God does lay conditions on the fulfilling of his word, as such the warning he issued Israel through Jeremiah: Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Therefore we conclude that God repents based on man’s freewill where he has not bound himself by an unqualified word; but when it comes to his ultimate purpose in any thing, when it comes to his very nature, we read that with him is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

NKJV Genesis 6:7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.

Not that sorry, because they're still here.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Much to the horror of those who limit God’s mind and actions to a linear mathematical formula, the answer is “yes”, God can change his mind.

So does He change His mind from worse to better, or from better to worse?

such as when he sat back to see what Adam would call the beasts (Gen.2:19) or asked the council of heaven who would persuade Ahab to go to battle and how he would be persuaded (1Ki.22:19-22).

Did God not know what Adam would call the animals so that He had to dance attendance upon him in order to find out? Was God at a loss as to how to deal with Ahab until one of His created spirits came to help Him out? How does this square with God's omniscience? Just how limited do you think it is?

 

[George Antonios]

So does He change His mind from worse to better, or from better to worse?

That's a philosophical question but not a scriptural one. Was it worse or better that he sent the flood? Was it worse or better that he hearkened to the plea of Moses? Was it worse or better that he hearkened to the pleas of Amos? Look at what he says in Hosea:
Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
Any angry, sorrowing, godly parent who is pacing back and forth weighing his options between to punish or not, and to what degree to punish, knows that feeling all too well. And God says he allows himself to experience just that. To boil that down to a philosophical "better or worse" is almost meaningless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That's a philosophical question but not a scriptural one.

It is a deeply theological question. If God can change His mind, what security do we His creatures have?

Was is worse or better that he sent the flood? Was it worse or better that he hearkened to the plea of Moses? Was it worse or better that he hearkened to the pleas of Amos?

Clearly better in all cases or He would not have done it. But equally clearly, He knew He would do these things from all eternity. God does not change His plans on the hoof. I recommend a study of Isaiah 40-55.

Look at what he says in Hosea:
Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
Any angry, sorrowing, godly parent who is pacing back and forth weighing his options between to punish or not, and to what degree to punish, knows that feeling all too well. And God says he allows himself to experience just that. To boil that down to a philosophical "better or worse" is almost meaningless.

It certainly is not! A God who will allow His emotions to dictate His actions is no God at all. Yet God 'takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.'
I am going out now, but I will come back to this subject on my return.

 

[Yeshua1]

That was the Son. John 1:2-3.

That was still God saying it, regardless if Father or the Son!

 

[Yeshua1]

So does He change His mind from worse to better, or from better to worse?

Did God not know what Adam would call the animals so that He had to dance attendance upon him in order to find out? Was God at a loss as to how to deal with Ahab until one of His created spirits came to help Him out? How does this square with God's omniscience? Just how limited do you think it is?

Are we heading into Open theism territory now?

 

[George Antonios]

It is a deeply theological question. If God can change His mind, what security do we His creatures have?

Clearly better in all cases or He would not have done it. But equally clearly, He knew He would do these things from all eternity. God does not change His plans on the hoof. I recommend a study of Isaiah 40-55.

It certainly is not! A God who will allow His emotions to dictate His actions is no God at all. Yet God 'takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.'
I am going out now, but I will come back to this subject on my return.

Our role is to exercise faith in God's own words about his own mind, not to change his words to solve our perceived problem. If human philosophy sees a problem, the problem is in the human. As for "security", that point was addressed already in post #30: "Therefore we conclude that God repents based on man’s freewill where he has not bound himself by an unqualified word; but when it comes to his ultimate purpose in any thing, when it comes to his very nature, we read that with him is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17)."

Alright, have a safe outing and may the Lord keep you

 

[Yeshua1]

Our role is to exercise faith in God's own words about his own mind, not to change his words to solve our perceived problem. If human philosophy sees a problem, the problem is in the human. As for "security", that point was addressed already: "Therefore we conclude that God repents based on man’s freewill where he has not bound himself by an unqualified word; but when it comes to his ultimate purpose in any thing, when it comes to his very nature, we read that with him is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17)."

Alright, have a safe outing and may the Lord keep you

Does God ever change due to Him learning more information, or seeing things from a new perspective now?

 

[George Antonios]

Does God ever change due to Him learning more information, or seeing things from a new perspective now?

Only when he chooses to subject himself to experiencing those things. And he certainly can do that because he tells us that he does and shows us that he does in the Bible.

 

[37818]

That was still God saying it, regardless if Father or the Son!

When God says or does anything it is a finite temporal act of God which is solely the making of the Son on behalf of the Father. John 1:2-3. John 5:18-19.