So the Father has never done anything directly?
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Does God really ever change His own mind?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
SO?
37818
Well-Known Member
If you believe John 1:2-3, ". . .The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." Stating He the Word with God to be the sole cause of everything God made. Also Colossians 1:16-17, ". . . For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. . . ." By Christ all thing consist. All.
Not in a temporal sense, no. Not in a linear time sense. In eternity past, with his exhaustive definite foreknowledge, outside of time, he does respond to things. Like the fall, for instance. This is why all of God's decisions can be traced back to eternity past.
Precise predictive prophecy alone is sufficient to conclude exhaustive definite foreknowledge. What proof you would cite to contradict this?
Calminian, if you don't mind, can you explain what the terms mean? I can't follow the argument and that means most people can't.
What part specifically? The meaning of exhaustive definite foreknowledge?
Yes, I'm sorry for my nebulousness.
"Exhaustive definite foreknowledge" and "exhaustive knowledge" and what is meant by "knowledge of the future."
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I think you are trying to attack open theism if I remember my seminary classes well, but it's mainly Aramaic to me.
It's a term dubbed EDF which is basically in response to open theists who believe that, while God knows all possible futures, there are things still open and undetermined that He does not yet know. They would deny God has exhaustive precise knowledge of the actual future that will take place, since true free will decisions cannot be foreknown (so they claim).
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I am safely returned from a church Bible Study. Thank you for your good wishes. 
So when we rad, 'I the LORD do not change. Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob' (Malachi 3:6), we understand that it is the Lord's immutable purpose that keeps Him from destroying Israel, not His emotions surging up and down. So God's sparing of Israel in the Golden Calf incident in Exodus 32, though it was done through Moses' pleadings for the people (vs. 11-14), yet there was in fact no prospect of the Israelites actually being destroyed because God does not change. Likewise we read that 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever,' so we know that no one who was given to Him by the Father will ever be lost (John 6:39), even though it is necessary for them to repent and believe (John 6:40).
Amen! But if God's own words seem to contradict themselves, then the Analogy of faith requires that we do not set one word against another, but seek to reconcile them.
So when we rad, 'I the LORD do not change. Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob' (Malachi 3:6), we understand that it is the Lord's immutable purpose that keeps Him from destroying Israel, not His emotions surging up and down. So God's sparing of Israel in the Golden Calf incident in Exodus 32, though it was done through Moses' pleadings for the people (vs. 11-14), yet there was in fact no prospect of the Israelites actually being destroyed because God does not change. Likewise we read that 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever,' so we know that no one who was given to Him by the Father will ever be lost (John 6:39), even though it is necessary for them to repent and believe (John 6:40).
All God's purposes are ultimate. '....Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,"............Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I shall also do it' (Isaiah 46:10-11).
No, that is what is called a non-sequitur.
Once again. Your claim - not mine. Hence you are required to prove your claim. I don't have to disprove it for it not to be true. I just simply asked questions.
Here are two to three questions:
1. Do you believe that God lies?
2. Do you believe that God's knowledge of the future is exhaustive?
3. If 2 is true, then what is your biblical reference for exhaustive knowledge as oppose to simply knowledge of the future.
Have the questions enraged you to the point that you're ready to burn me at the stake?
Why do the questions upset you so much?
Some things you might want to ponder.
That is very backwards. God has more freedom than finite, and thus known, creatures. His delights are higher than our mere preferences. God does all He pleases.
If the future is variable to an omniscient entity it is only because He has choice to change things as He pleases according to His own counsel. As finite entities we are known and thus our choices constant.
Is grief proper to God?
John Owen: "The apostle tells us that God is 'blessed forever,' Ro. 9:5; "He is the blessed and only Potentate,' 1 Tim. 6:15; "God all-sufficient, "Gen. 17:1. That which s inconsistent with absolute blessedness and all-sufficiency is not to be ascribed to God; to do so casts him down from his excellency. But he can be blessed, is he all-sufficient, who is tossed up and down with hope, joy, fear, sorrow, repentance, anger, and the like?" When we remove the figurative human passion, to which perfection of God does this analogy point?
John Calvin : "Certainly God is not sorrowful or sad; but remains forever like himself in his celestial and happy repose: yet, because it could not otherwise be known hw great is God's hatred and detestation of sin, therefore the Spirit accommodates himself to our capacity."
Matthew Henry : "This language does not imply passion or uneasiness in God (nothing can create disturbance to the Eternal Mind), but it expresses his just and holy displeasure against sin and sinners, against sin as odious to holiness and against sinners as obnoxious to his justice."
Again, the above is taken from part of a handout from last week's adult Sunday School class.
John Owen: "The apostle tells us that God is 'blessed forever,' Ro. 9:5; "He is the blessed and only Potentate,' 1 Tim. 6:15; "God all-sufficient, "Gen. 17:1. That which s inconsistent with absolute blessedness and all-sufficiency is not to be ascribed to God; to do so casts him down from his excellency. But he can be blessed, is he all-sufficient, who is tossed up and down with hope, joy, fear, sorrow, repentance, anger, and the like?" When we remove the figurative human passion, to which perfection of God does this analogy point?
John Calvin : "Certainly God is not sorrowful or sad; but remains forever like himself in his celestial and happy repose: yet, because it could not otherwise be known hw great is God's hatred and detestation of sin, therefore the Spirit accommodates himself to our capacity."
Matthew Henry : "This language does not imply passion or uneasiness in God (nothing can create disturbance to the Eternal Mind), but it expresses his just and holy displeasure against sin and sinners, against sin as odious to holiness and against sinners as obnoxious to his justice."
Again, the above is taken from part of a handout from last week's adult Sunday School class.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Only when such "immutable purpose" has been committed to by the word of God. Otherwise, yes, it most definitely is when "his emotions [are] surging up and down", as it is written: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. (Ps.2:12).
Also, emotional surges have the connotation of instability because we are mere men, but we shouldn't forasmuch project our instability unto his emotional surges.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I am safely returned from a church Bible Study. Thank you for your good wishes.
Me too! Praise God
That God has no sorrow is unbiblical to the extreme. Did God have any pain of any kind when Jesus was on the Cross crying out to His Father? If no, I have no idea what is going on. Does God feel pain when Israel rebels forcing judgment in Jeremiah and Ezekiel's time? I don't even know how to approach the minor prophets or Jeremiah or Ezekiel or Lamentations if God does not feel any sadness in any way.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Dear God! That is not Bible! That Aristotelian metaphysics wherein each unmoved mover continuously contemplates its own contemplation. That is Buddhism.
What a cold, clinical, soul-less, comfortless, and most unbiblical view of God!
Calvinism has ever been human philosophy superimposed and forced upon the nature of God as revealed in the Bible.
It's man trying to help God out when he misspeaks and doesn't present himself in accordance with philosophy.
There is a reason why Paul warned us against being spoiled by philosophy (Col.2:8).
All God's purposes are immutable. Malachi 3:6 again. God's anger is a settled thing from all eternity and is tied in with His perfect justice. Read Psalms 7:11. There was never a time when God was not angry with the wicked. God does not have 'parts;' He does not wake up with raging toothache which puts Him into a bad mood. Indeed, He does not wake up at all because He does not get tired or need to sleep (Isaiah 40:28). God always knew exactly when and how Israel was going to sin and exactly when and how He would punish them (cf. Exodus 31:16). He always knew just who was going to 'kiss the Son' and who wasn't.
I am finding it quite difficult to express the doctrines of Divine Omnipotence and Simplicity in a few words. Perhaps I may find time to do a more lengthy post at some stage.
37818
Well-Known Member
Cause is an agency of change. Or nothing would be caused. God uncaused eternal infinite omnipresent is immutable. The Word who is both with God and was God is both someone other than God and God. And is identifed as God's uncaused sole agency of cause John 1:2-3. And changed in being made flesh to become a man, John 1:14. John 1:9-10. We know Him to be the Son of God. John 5:18-19, John 1:18, Genesis 12:7, Genesis 22:12. As God the Son never changed, but how He was with God John 1:2 did change John 1:14. Proverbs 30:4. John 3:13.
God is absoutely omniscient. The Son in His finite and temporal acts being God has limited His omniscience. Genesis 22:12; Mark 13:32, Acts of the Apostles 1:7.
God is absoutely omniscient. The Son in His finite and temporal acts being God has limited His omniscience. Genesis 22:12; Mark 13:32, Acts of the Apostles 1:7.
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I am safely returned from a church Bible Study. Thank you for your good wishes.
Amen! But if God's own words seem to contradict themselves, then the Analogy of faith requires that we do not set one word against another, but seek to reconcile them.
So when we rad, 'I the LORD do not change. Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob' (Malachi 3:6), we understand that it is the Lord's immutable purpose that keeps Him from destroying Israel, not His emotions surging up and down. So God's sparing of Israel in the Golden Calf incident in Exodus 32, though it was done through Moses' pleadings for the people (vs. 11-14), yet there was in fact no prospect of the Israelites actually being destroyed because God does not change. Likewise we read that 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever,' so we know that no one who was given to Him by the Father will ever be lost (John 6:39), even though it is necessary for them to repent and believe (John 6:40).
All God's purposes are ultimate. '....Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,"............Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I shall also do it' (Isaiah 46:10-11).
Thanks for posting these fine verses which are a blessing to the people of God. There could be no gospel promise if God was not absolutely sovereign, and immutable as these verses point to.