Does God want me to Sin?

[utilyan]

[1 Timothy 2:1-7 NKJV]

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.​

I am confident in claiming that God desires all men to be saved, because God has said so in His word (which is trustworthy).

Do all men "come to the knowledge of the truth" and are all men "saved"?

The same trustworthy word of God says "No."
So from these two irrefutable facts, men must begin their speculations as to "WHY?"

We "Reformed" are guilty of refusing to believe that the "WHY" is because God is not in control.
If you are going to reject any "choice" of who is saved and who is not on the part of God, then no amount of lipstick will cover the fact that that 'pig' has removed God from His position of control. Particular Baptists, like me, have a really hard time swallowing that "solution" given the rest of trustworthy scripture that it must be made to agree with.

So what does God want? permit? cause to happen?
It does injustice to the real "mystery" to attempt to reduce it to a sound-bite answer.

I'm not being told YES OR NO in regards to a complete stranger. Does God want them not to sin and to be saved?


Confident in that God desires all men to be saved , but lacks the ability to pull it off?

"Do all men "come to the knowledge of the truth" and are all men "saved"?"

I'm not a universalist but.....No one is damned yet and God could pull an upset.

I heard rumors Jesus is good at what he does. Some say his mercy has a limit, some say it has no limit. Some say there is no mercy at all he just picks on his own whim who he likes. Some folks are SURPRISED and SHOCKED God would bother saving anyone, even a wretch like me. Not me though. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a perfect hero, in fact I'm scared to think of someone who thinks better of Jesus.

The thing I'm trying to get you to focus on is God's WANT and DESIRE. Often there is a presumption that God is not being sincere. I've had people say, He doesn't "REALLY" want a person to stop sinning because he never "REALLY" wanted that person saved.
To get there I have to 2nd guess and question God's own commands. He commands folks to love God and neighbor. The very act of sin implies they are missing the mark and not doing what God wanted.


If God says He wants you to sit or stand, I don't presume, well he could be deceptive.....its a mystery what he wants.....

I think he is HONEST in his commands that express his actual want and desire.

 

[DaveXR650]

That's not "decreeing" (in the Calvinist sense) sin and you probably know it. But such are the contortions necessary to obfuscate when sensing a quandary

A decree is a statement of truth that carries a legal authority. God decreed that Joseph would rule Egypt. He used the sinful attitudes of his brothers to accomplish that without forcing them to sin. Would you please explain how that does not answer your question.

 

[atpollard]

Say how it is logically flawed then, please, whether you can name it or not.
If you can explain how God decrees something without causing it, especially when you confess such causality in one instance, we will all be impressed.

My dog is brown; therefore all dogs must be brown.
God does not cause sin; therefore God must not cause salvation.

You have treated "sin" and "salvation" as equivalent ... two interchangeable examples of the same thing ... but they are not.

Sin and damnation are God leaving man to follow man's desires. (Romans 1:18-32 ... God gave them up to follow THEIR desires).
Salvation is God drawing man to follow God's desires. (Colossians 3:10-11 ... a new man in Christ)
The desires of man and the desires of God are antithetical.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not being told YES OR NO in regards to a complete stranger. Does God want them not to sin and to be saved?

Yes.

(I am not sure about your point of specifying "a complete stranger" ... there are no strangers to God ... however 1 Timothy 2:1-7 seems clear about what God desires.)

 

[atpollard]

If you can explain how God decrees something without causing it, especially when you confess such causality in one instance, we will all be impressed.

I gave the example of Joseph's brothers early in this topic [post #18]. God certainly had no need to COERCE his brothers into sin, yet the word of God is clear ... "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." [Genesis 50:20 NKJV]
Both the "free will" of men to follow their inclinations towards sin and the Sovereign Will of GOD to ordain all that comes to pass for our good and His glory were at work simultaneously. That is what makes Him God with a big"G" instead of just "a god" with a small "g".

(verses that God is all that and a bag of chips are available upon request)

 

[George Antonios]

My dog is brown; therefore all dogs must be brown.
God does not cause sin; therefore God must not cause salvation.

You have treated "sin" and "salvation" as equivalent ... two interchangeable examples of the same thing ... but they are not.

Sin and damnation are God leaving man to follow man's desires. (Romans 1:18-32 ... God gave them up to follow THEIR desires).
Salvation is God drawing man to follow God's desires. (Colossians 3:10-11 ... a new man in Christ)
The desires of man and the desires of God are antithetical.

You've conveniently omitted the decrees.
Your argument was that God decreed both sin and salvation but only causes sin yet not salvation.

Also, you can't speak of God decreeing sin then conveniently shift to discussing men simply acting on their desires.

Two step shuffle.

 

[atpollard]

Also, you can't speak of God decreeing sin then conveniently shift to discussing men simply acting on their desires.

Two step shuffle.

See Genesis 50:20.
Joseph's brothers acted on their desires AND God decreed the outcome.
"Not this man, but Barabbas." [John 18:40] ... the people acted on their desires AND God decreed the outcome.

Why can I not speak of what God has so clearly illustrated for us in His word (and in His Word made flesh)?

 

[atpollard]

[Romans 7:13-25 NKJV]

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that [it is] good. 17 But now, [it is] no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

What of those that do not have Jesus Christ as their Lord? [see Romans 10:8-10]
Are they not also men of flesh? carnal? sold under sin?

 

[atpollard]

• [Psalms 135:6 NKJV] 6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.
• [Job 1:20-22 NKJV] 20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD." 22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.
• [Job 2:10 NKJV] 10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
• [Job 42:2 NKJV] 2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose [of Yours] can be withheld from You.
  
• [Eph 1:11 NKJV] 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
• [Mat 10:29 NKJV] 29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
• [Col 1:16-17 NKJV] 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
• [Isa 45:7 NKJV] 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'
• [Pro 16:33 NKJV] 33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision [is] from the LORD.
• [Lam 3:37-39 NKJV] 37 Who [is] he [who] speaks and it comes to pass, [When] the Lord has not commanded [it]? 38 [Is it] not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed? 39 Why should a living man complain, A man for the punishment of his sins?
• [Act 4:27-28 NKJV] 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Let there be no doubt that our LORD is GOD and HE ordains all that comes to pass.

... "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." ... [Romans 8:28 NKJV]

[Therefore, "all things" really means ALL things and "His purpose" really means HIS purpose. That will either comfort you or frighten you depending on whether or not you trust HIM.]

 

[George Antonios]

Now it's God just ordaining "the outcome", eh?

3-step shuffle.

 

[1689Dave]

“And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[atpollard]

Now it's God just ordaining "the outcome", eh?

3-step shuffle.

No "JUST" ... God ordains (decrees) the outcome: both the means and the end.

[Isa 45:7 NKJV] 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'

 

[atpollard]

Now it's God just ordaining "the outcome", eh?

[Proverbs 21:1 NKJV] 1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

1. Is Proverbs 21:1 True or false?
2. What about hearts other than the king's?
3. Is God in control? (yes or no)

My answers are:
1 TRUE
2. All means All (Romans 8:28)
3. Yes.

 

[George Antonios]

So, again, how does God ordain sin without causing it, if he ordains the means, ends, and outcomes, even everything?

 

[atpollard]

So, again, how does God ordain sin without causing it, if he ordains the means, ends, and outcomes, even everything?

Just as soon as you answer my three short questions on Proverbs 21:1 and we establish whether or not scripture teaches that God is in control ... as a starting point for our discussion. That tells me where to begin in answering your question (above).

 

[DaveXR650]

Calvinists have different schools of thought as to how meticulous God is in ordering every molecule in the universe. The topic of this thread was on whether God "'wants" people to sin. George on post #3 brought in "Calvinism" and "decree" and then proceeded with some kind of bizarre tactic where the whole thread is now about satisfying his strawman definition of Calvinism. He never answers a post directly, never responds to explanations he has been given concerning the OP, complains when a post is too long for him to read, and most important of all never offers a verse. So as you see above he just goes in circles, responding with one liners. So George, unless you can engage some of my earlier explanations directly we're done and I'll even save you some time and answer this post for you "4 step shuffle". Duh!

 

[1689Dave]

Calvinists have different schools of thought as to how meticulous God is in ordering every molecule in the universe. The topic of this thread was on whether God "'wants" people to sin. George on post #3 brought in "Calvinism" and "decree" and then proceeded with some kind of bizarre tactic where the whole thread is now about satisfying his strawman definition of Calvinism. He never answers a post directly, never responds to explanations he has been given concerning the OP, complains when a post is too long for him to read, and most important of all never offers a verse. So as you see above he just goes in circles, responding with one liners. So George, unless you can engage some of my earlier explanations directly we're done and I'll even save you some time and answer this post for you "4 step shuffle". Duh!

Ps 135:61 Whatsoever the LORD pleased,
That did he in heaven, and in earth, In the seas, and all deep places.

Da 4:351 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Ps 103:191 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; And his kingdom ruleth over all.

l Ch 16:261 For all the gods of the people are idols: But the LORD made the heavens.

 

[Van]

God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. The doctrine that God ordains (predestines) sin but is not the author (the first cause of sin) is gibberish nonsense.

Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden and then command Adam not to eat thereof? Certainly God therefore "allowed" Adam to sin, and provided his opportunity to sin. A. W. Pink says thus "God arranged for Adam to sin," but did not cause (compel) Adam to sin, Adam sinned volitionally.

We know that God choose Christ to be His lamb before creation, thus God anticipated Adam's sin and its consequences.

 

[atpollard]

The doctrine that God ordains (predestines) sin but is not the author (the first cause of sin) is gibberish nonsense.

Joseph's brothers and Genesis 50:20
Joseph's brothers acted on their desires AND God decreed the outcome.

Apparently Scripture includes "gibberish nonsense".

 

[utilyan]

I don't see a problem with God authoring evil and meticulously controlling everything.
I see a problem with assuming God does those things as a motive for evil.

Like just because God has "the right" and is permissible to do evil and be unforgiving, then he does evil or is unforgiving.