Does it really matter if you're a Calvinist?

[quantumfaith]

IMO, in the final analysis, I believe we are/will be judged on how well we live/lived 'the golden rule' while here on earth. Knowing the deep wonderful truths of the scriptures is for the benefit/joy of the Saints. But having your doctrines 'just right' has zilch to do with true religion.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Be sure to let Luke know that I gave a "thumbs up" to a non Non-cal.

 

[glfredrick]

:
Be sure to let Luke know that I gave a "thumbs up" to a non Non-cal.

You've done that before... :wavey:

One thing I appreciate about you, quantumfaith, is that while you are not afraid to argue for your point and support those with whom you side, you do not cross the line into destructive debating styles, designed to tear down the man instead of deal with the issue. Thanks!

 

[glfredrick]

The point of the OP was to consider the FACT that if we (non-Calvinists) are wrong, then no eternal harm is done. We are only doing what God decreed for us to do and we ultimately couldn't have done otherwise. The same number of people will be saved regardless of our "false" teaching.

BUT, if Calvinists are wrong just consider the damage they have done. How many people have they lead astray? How many people have they distracted with their false teaching? How many people have they repulsed from Christ with their difficult doctrines? How many churches have they split? etc etc...

Again, I'm only supposing the eternal effect that each camp would have IF it is wrong. Calvinists, you need to consider that your error is much more grave than ours, so tread lightly and carefully brethren.

I don't see it and I believe you are making more of this than needs to be.

At the end of the day ALL of us (who are God's by God) will come to understand all the places where we've "seen in a mirror dimly..." God will correct us in a multitude of places. One place I doubt that He will correct us, however, is that HE ALONE is the power that inhabits the cosmos and the sole arbiter (author and finisher) of our faith.

When we stand before His throne one day, we'll get it -- totally -- and we WILL fall on our faces before Holy God, elect and non-elect, and He will (finally) be fully God to us. It takes a compete new birth to even begin the process, which flies in the face of ANY effort of humans to come in faith or let our pre-salvific faith be the deciding factor for God's actions.

Now, back to your point... Are you making the fatal assumption that Calvinists do not evangelize or some other claptrap? I can think of no other reason for the dire warning AGAINST a view that God alone is the sovereign King of all kings and the One who decides our eternal destiny. Is it THAT hard to let God be God?

 

[quantumfaith]

You've done that before... :wavey:

One thing I appreciate about you, quantumfaith, is that while you are not afraid to argue for your point and support those with whom you side, you do not cross the line into destructive debating styles, designed to tear down the man instead of deal with the issue. Thanks!

Just want to make sure Luke knows I am "working on my "biases"".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In sincere respect and love, I submit that you are "accepting" my post wrongly. I am simply saying, we should all have a degree of confidence about the theology we hold, but always have a heart and spirit open to questioning and revising our cherished positions. If you do not agree, well I am sorry. But that is the way that I feel.

I humbly do not agree....Rather we should know ourselves, our beliefs etc & hold ourselves & our beliefs in the highest esteem. If you do not have superb self esteem , others will have no esteem for you.

 

[webdog]

I humbly do not agree....Rather we should know ourselves, our beliefs etc & hold ourselves & our beliefs in the highest esteem. If you do not have superb self esteem , others will have no esteem for you.

Where do we find in Scripture that we are to have superb "self esteem"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pride cometh before the fall. I suppose we are all wrong to some degree with regard to our doctrinal perspective and the people I fear the most are the ones who can't recognize this because of their own arrogance and pride.

Just consider the implications of your response. That is all I ask.

Has nothing to do with pride....just knowing yourself & your capabilities.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Where do we find in Scripture that we are to have superb "self esteem"?

I dont know, I 1st learned that in the Marines, in combat you better be on your game & know what your doing because lives are at stake. Would you go in for brain surgery thinking your surgeon is unsure of the operation procedure or follow a man into battle who didnt know what he was doing, or allow your accountant to do your taxes after he tells you he wasnt on top of the latest IRS revisions....of course you wouldnt.

Likewise my God thru grace has given me the confidence. From this I have faith in Him to do the right thing in every situation.....you guys should try it some time. Its very liberating.

 

[webdog]

I dont know, I 1st learned that in the Marines, in combat you better be on your game & know what your doing because lives are at stake. Would you go in for brain surgery thinking your surgeon is unsure of the operation procedure or follow a man into battle who didnt know what he was doing, or allow your accountant to do your taxes after he tells you he wasnt on top of the latest IRS revisions....of course you wouldnt.

Likewise my God thru grace has given me the confidence. From this I have faith in Him to do the right thing in every situation.....you guys should try it some time. Its very liberating.

Seriously, what is the need for something like that? My trust rests entirely in God and the gifts and talents He has given me. To esteem yourself highly is pure self centered muck that the secular humanists push for. We should have the attitude John the Baptist had of "I must become less and He must become greater".

 

[The Archangel]

My trust rests entirely in God and the gifts and talents He has given me.

I just wanted to point out a problem with this phrase. And, in giving you the benefit of the doubt, I wanted to point it out because I don't think you mean to be saying what you are saying.

If your trust rests entirely in God and something else, then you trust does not rest entirely in God.

Furthermore, it would seem that you are trusting in two things: 1.) God and 2.) Yourself--as evidenced in the "gifts" and "talents" you now wield.

Now, I don't think you mean to say this. I just wanted to point out that it may be taken way differently from what you intended to convey.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

I humbly do not agree....Rather we should know ourselves, our beliefs etc & hold ourselves & our beliefs in the highest esteem. If you do not have superb self esteem , others will have no esteem for you.

Well, you and I will simply ATD. If you have no esteem for me, then that is not my issue, I rather think of being "open" displays an attitude of humility and cognizance of my finiteness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Seriously, what is the need for something like that? My trust rests entirely in God and the gifts and talents He has given me. To esteem yourself highly is pure self centered muck that the secular humanists push for. We should have the attitude John the Baptist had of "I must become less and He must become greater".

No humanist BS, however they teach you that at Annapolis & West Point ... Its called leadership. Besides my self esteem comes naturally when I'm aligned with who-I am-in God. Again you should try it some time.

 

[Don]

I just wanted to point out a problem with this phrase. And, in giving you the benefit of the doubt, I wanted to point it out because I don't think you mean to be saying what you are saying.

If your trust rests entirely in God and something else, then you trust does not rest entirely in God.

Furthermore, it would seem that you are trusting in two things: 1.) God and 2.) Yourself--as evidenced in the "gifts" and "talents" you now wield.

Now, I don't think you mean to say this. I just wanted to point out that it may be taken way differently from what you intended to convey.

The Archangel

I'd like to point out the error with your nit-picking: you stopped with the conjuntion "and," without considering the descriptive words beyond them.

i.e., "My trust rests entirely in God and the gifts and talents He has given me."

I may not necessarily agree with Webdog--I haven't quite figured out if he's a Calvinist or not--but nit-picking, when it doesn't include full context, is unnecessary.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, you and I will simply ATD. If you have no esteem for me, then that is not my issue, I rather think of being "open" displays an attitude of humility and cognizance of my finiteness.

Oh, now your taking this as a personal attack. I told you a long time ago we would not agree on beliefs so I can gladly take ATD....I consider that a breakthrough. It should be the badge worn by everyone in here.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[The Archangel]

I'd like to point out the error with your nit-picking: you stopped with the conjuntion "and," without considering the descriptive words beyond them.

i.e., "My trust rests entirely in God and the gifts and talents He has given me."

I may not necessarily agree with Webdog--I haven't quite figured out if he's a Calvinist or not--but nit-picking, when it doesn't include full context, is unnecessary.

Don,

For the record, Webdog is most certainly not a Calvinist. And I was not nit-picking. I did read the conjunction "and" and I did consider the phrase "He has given me."

What I was pointing out, and perhaps I was not clear enough, is that to have trust in talents or gifts--even if God has given them--is, ultimately, to trust in one's self.

As an example: One, who believes as I do--that faith itself is a gift from God, might say "I trust my faith to save me." This is trusting in a gift of God, but it is having "faith" in faith itself, not in the object of the faith.

So, for us to have faith, faith implies an object and if that object (for the purposes of salvation) is not Christ Himself, the faith is not salvific.

Thanks for taking the time to point out that I had not been clear enough.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh, now your taking this as a personal attack. I told you a long time ago we would not agree on beliefs so I can gladly take ATD....I consider that a breakthrough. It should be the badge worn by everyone in here.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

I did not take it as an attack, but to be honest, I did not know how to read the "tone".

 

[Robert Snow]

Chuck Missler?! You have got to be kidding me. He is an off-kilter guy if ever there was one. His elevator doesn't go to the top floor. He's not playing with a full deck.Get the picture?

I think he's an intelligent,articulate and fascinating talker. He says some true things,and he says some false things in a very interesting way.

I used to listen to some of his conspiracy stuff years ago --not believing it --but to humor a friend. C.M. is an eccentric kind of guy to say the least.

I saw/listened to him on Youtube delivering a message on how sovereign man is. Chuck is a Calvary Chapel man.He wants to pretend that he's playing it straight down the middle between Calvinism and Arminianism.That's because,as he says:"The river of truth runs through the banks of two extremes." Blah,blah,blah.

He's an Arminian-semi-Pelagian in his theology regardless of his claims otherwise.Contrary to what he says -- man is not sovereign --God alone is. There is no such thing as Calvinists believing in double election as he falsely claims. And on and on with his ruminations/lectures.

I am shocked you don't like a good bible teacher like Dr. Missler. :tongue3:

Actually, I would expect no less from you. When someone calls into question a person some almost worship like you do Calvin, they usually strike back with gibberish like you have done here.

Tell you what, you stick with Calvin; I'll take good bible teachers like McGee, Missler and Adrian Rogers any day!

 

[quantumfaith]

I am shocked you don't like a good bible teacher like Dr. Missler. :tongue3:

Actually, I would expect no less from you. When someone calls into question a person some almost worship like you do Calvin, they usually strike back with gibberish like you have done here.

Tell you what, you stick with Calvin; I'll take good bible teachers like McGee, Missler and Adrian Rogers any day!

Robert, I don't know Missler or McGee, but I do like George Bryson. Also have a great deal of respect for William Lane Craig, Ravi Zacharias, and my "preacher" Andy Stanley. Let me add, I also really like Christopher J H Wright.

 

[mets65]

Oh, now your taking this as a personal attack. I told you a long time ago we would not agree on beliefs so I can gladly take ATD....I consider that a breakthrough. It should be the badge worn by everyone in here.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

We as baptists and as christians have to wear this badge, we can't tear down our brothers in Christ but rather encourage. I still say no doctrine is perfect in God's eyes, only in our eyes. No sinners such as we can fully understand God.

 

[quantumfaith]

We as baptists and as christians have to wear this badge, we can't tear down our brothers in Christ but rather encourage. I still say no doctrine is perfect in God's eyes, only in our eyes. No sinners such as we can fully understand God.

Wise words from a young man. Kudos.