Does James disprove Free Will?

[1689Dave]

“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)

 

[HankD]

“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)

And?

 

[1689Dave]

And?

Just sayin' free will should be able to produce perfectly motivated speech.

 

[HankD]

Just sayin' free will should be able to produce perfectly motivated speech.

ah yes - i see your point - good. any responses?

 

[1689Dave]

ah yes - i see your point - good. any responses?

It made for a good conversation on another site I posted to.

 

[AustinC]

Just sayin' free will should be able to produce perfectly motivated speech.

How do you get this from James 3:7-12?

 

[1689Dave]

How do you get this from James 3:7-12?

If you cannot freely choose to control your tongue, what can you freely choose to do for the right reason?

 

[church mouse guy]

If you cannot freely choose to control your tongue, what can you freely choose to do for the right reason?

It is axiomatic that we sin by thought, word, and deed. So, no, James does not disprove free will as much as he proves total depravity because we say things that we shouldn't and words sometimes carry messages that we did not intend.

 

[1689Dave]

It is axiomatic that we sin by thought, word, and deed. So, no, James does not disprove free will as much as he proves total depravity because we say things that we shouldn't and words sometimes carry messages that we did not intend.

There are none righteous. This means you are not free to choose a proper motive behind what you say or do.

 

[church mouse guy]

There are none righteous. This means you are not free to choose a proper motive behind what you say or do.

Oh, I am free enough, 1689, but over almost 80 years of life there are many instances of missing the mark. What you, 1689, have shown is the need to be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

 

[AustinC]

If you cannot freely choose to control your tongue, what can you freely choose to do for the right reason?

This seems like a huge leap and I don't believe the context allows for this leap.

 

[timtofly]

“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)

James is about a double minded man.

Free will that cannot settle, but constantly changing one's will back and forth, without end.

 

[1689Dave]

It is axiomatic that we sin by thought, word, and deed. So, no, James does not disprove free will as much as he proves total depravity because we say things that we shouldn't and words sometimes carry messages that we did not intend.

Total Depravity = no free will. If free will is present, depravity is not total.

 

[1689Dave]

James is about a double minded man.

Free will that cannot settle, but constantly changing one's will back and forth, without end.

Are you making it easy on yourself denying it is about not being able to have proper motives behind what you think and say? There are none righteous. But you claim to be if you brag that James was wrong and you can control your tongue.

 

[1689Dave]

This seems like a huge leap and I don't believe the context allows for this leap.

James says the tongue is the least, and you cannot control it. So how can you control the more weighty things? Like salvation?

 

[1689Dave]

Oh, I am free enough, 1689, but over almost 80 years of life there are many instances of missing the mark. What you, 1689, have shown is the need to be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

Aren't we calling God a liar after all these years if we say James got it wrong?

 

[church mouse guy]

Total Depravity = no free will. If free will is present, depravity is not total.

Well, that clearly is not true and I am surprised that you would say that.

 

[church mouse guy]

Aren't we calling God a liar after all these years if we say James got it wrong?

Who said that James got it wrong? No I. I said that it is axiomatic that we sin by thought, word, and deed. Do you disagree with that axiom? All I was trying to say is that one has to be washed in the Blood of Jesus for the cleansing from sin.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, that clearly is not true and I am surprised that you would say that.

Where do you find free will in the totally depraved flesh?
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (NCPB)

It's only here, in the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (NCPB)

 

[1689Dave]

Who said that James got it wrong? No I. I said that it is axiomatic that we sin by thought, word, and deed. Do you disagree with that axiom? All I was trying to say is that one has to be washed in the Blood of Jesus for the cleansing from sin.

So you agree, James disproves free will?