Does man have a voluntary will?

[Allan]

Oh yeah..... there is a need to repent, because the bible says so. But the fact is that we will repent... we could not help but repent because of the new nature given us.

Allan, when they are born again they are a new creation. It is not that they "have" to believe, but that they *will* believe. I agree that we have to believe, but when we are born again, we will believe. Again, I think we are born again of God, not because of our will, but God's will..... then we exercise our new will, which believes.

As do I. We are without question born again of God.
If you believe God's promise to provide your every need. Have you just added one iota to Gods work of providing for you.

Do you believe God can heal? (I'm not speaking Benny Hinn Junk either)
If you believe God will you heal (and lets us say that He does) have you just added to the power and working of God in you by believing.
Answer: Of course not for it was completely of God even with man believing.
But without that belief God would not work in that way.

As for your will believe statement. Unfortunately this is found nowhere in scripture. That a person who is born again (not saved) Will believe. I go with scripture and its literal reading IMO.
But here we differ on when a person is born-again but and yet we agree they must believe TO BE saved.

 

[reformedbeliever]

As do I. We are without question born again of God.
If you believe God's promise to provide your every need. Have you just added one iota to Gods work of providing for you.

Do you believe God can heal? (I'm not speaking Benny Hinn Junk either)
If you believe God will you heal (and lets us say that He does) have you just added to the power and working of God in you by believing.
Answer: Of course not for it was completely of God even with man believing.
But without that belief God would not work in that way.

As for your will believe statement. Unfortunately this is found nowhere in scripture. That a person who is born again (not saved) Will believe. I go with scripture and its literal reading IMO.
But here we differ on when a person is born-again but and yet we agree they must believe TO BE saved.

If belief is the cause, then yes it is work (an exercise of the will.) Our prayers to God to heal is aligning ourselves with God's will...... that is if you pray that His will be done. He does not heal everyone.
They are saved when they are born again, because they will believe without fail. The time element of the functions of being born again and believing are not measurable. I go with believing coming after being given a new nature (quickened) because we are not born again of our will (an exercise of the will or nature) but of God.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Allan, I think part of your reluctence to believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, is your eschatological belief. If free will fails... so does your eschatology, but that is another thread. I love you anyway brother, and I would never question your salvation. I think you are sovereignly saved by God. :love2:

By the way.... we are both church planters.

 

[Allan]

And I agree with you, I am sovereignly saved by Gods grace.

Keep the faith brother!

 

[Allan]

If belief is the cause, then yes it is work (an exercise of the will.) Our prayers to God to heal is aligning ourselves with God's will...... that is if you pray that His will be done. He does not heal everyone.
They are saved when they are born again, because they will believe without fail. The time element of the functions of being born again and believing are not measurable. I go with believing coming after being given a new nature (quickened) because we are not born again of our will (an exercise of the will or nature) but of God.

I agree we are aligning ourselves with Gods will and not of our selfish desires.
You keep missing that point. If God was going to heal us it wouldn't matter whether we believed or not. But God acts on our Faith, though faith is not the cause of WHY God acts. We are to live BY faith, we are to ask for things IN Faith of things we KNOW are in accordance with His will.

I never said God heals everyone and even stated "lets say He heals you" as a butress to the example.
I think your problem is not understanding faith in not a work. And that faith unto salvation has nothing of man in it. Faith in the scriptures is NEVER discrided in ANY sense as a work or as the will of man. It is an interesting study, try it.

 

[MB]

Hi reformedbeliever;

They may read the bible and understand the mechanics of it... but never understand in a spiritual way. The Holy Spirit does not reveal their sin, and the Holiness of God, does not reveal what Jesus did for us.

There is a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

There seems to be a lot of people who know the gospel and even understand the processes of Salvation but still deny they need a Savior. This does happen I have to agree but!!!!!.
There are also people who are convicted everytime they Hear His precious name. Convicted so deeply they Hate the sound of His name. These people don't complain about Mohamed, Buddha. or Harri Krishnah. They complain about Jesus because His name convicts them of there sins. His light exposes them for who they are. Isn't seeing ones own sin in a negative way a conviction as well? It was for me and still is. What convicts me the most these days is when I discover that what I have done is sin. Like lusting or coveting after something with out even thinking about it being sin first.
For me, it's made me hate sin in the end, for others, it makes them hate Jesus. Some never get past the hatred. Conviction seems to either draw us in or, drive us away.
Before I was saved. I hated Jesus and anything to do with God. I hated him right up to the second of when I first admitted that I needed a savior. This hurts me deeply when I look back on it. Still we are all the same before Salvation. ( Rom3:22-10:12) No one is better or more deserving than another. What made me change my mind? Was it regeneration? Or was it when I had reached a turning point in my life, where it seemed there was no other good way out of what ever perdicament I had gotten my self in to? We can't say that others never reach that turning point because we don't know. The one thing we all know least about is other men and what goes on inside them. They may tell you one thing when something all together different is going on. Especially when they aren't saved.
I don't know about any body else but before I was saved I was always in some perdicament. Most of those because I was in such a persit of sinnful things. I was in pursuit of those things right up to the point of Salvation. I never experinced any disabilities. Yes I was addicted to sin and the only way I could break the addiction was through Jesus Christ.
I do believe that it takes the Holy Spirit to bring us to our senses certainly, but who says God can't do that with out man having a voluntary will. The Jews have a voluntary will as in;
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

This is asking God to forgive. Isn't this a part of Salvation? Isn't forgiveness and repentance the beginning of the process of Salvation?
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree we are aligning ourselves with Gods will and not of our selfish desires.
You keep missing that point. If God was going to heal us it wouldn't matter whether we believed or not. But God acts on our Faith, though faith is not the cause of WHY God acts. We are to live BY faith, we are to ask for things IN Faith of things we KNOW are in accordance with His will.

I never said God heals everyone and even stated "lets say He heals you" as a butress to the example.
I think your problem is not understanding faith in not a work. And that faith unto salvation has nothing of man in it. Faith in the scriptures is NEVER discrided in ANY sense as a work or as the will of man. It is an interesting study, try it.

I agree completely. Faith is a gift of God. I agree also that our faith or belief or responsibility is a tool God uses to accomplish His purposes. I believe He decreed prayer and faith as tools to accomplish all His purposes and decrees.

 

[Allan]

Isn't forgiveness and repentance the beginning of the process of Salvation?

I am not Reformed and will allow him to speak for himself here, but I will tell you that according to Calvinistic Theology No.

Forgiveness and repeance in their theological construct is the RESULT OF salvation and not the precurssor to it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Or was it when I had reached a turning point in my life, where it seemed there was no other good way out of what ever perdicament I had gotten my self in to?

So you chose good. Don't you see that gives you reason to boast?

I do believe that it takes the Holy Spirit to bring us to our senses certainly, but who says God can't do that with out man having a voluntary will.

We are born again of God, not our will. See John 1:13
An exercise of the will is an act. Our will is our nature. We are by nature children of wrath. God must act first to change that nature (quicken or make alive our spirit) which is to be born again. We then exercise our will or new nature and beleive. Salvation is a rescue. Rescue is a better word in english for the original word.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

And none of them could keep the law. Jesus had to come to save us from our inability.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I am not Reformed and will allow him to speak for himself here, but I will tell you that according to Calvinistic Theology No.

Forgiveness and repeance in their theological construct is the RESULT OF salvation and not the precurssor to it.

Thank you brother. I wish I were as articulate as you. I did not do well in english in high school, and never finished a college english class. Maybe someday. Thanks again.

 

[webdog]

So you chose good. Don't you see that gives you reason to boast?

No, can you show why it would give us a reason to boast?

We are born again of God, not our will. See John 1:13
An exercise of the will is an act. Our will is our nature. We are by nature children of wrath. God must act first to change that nature (quicken or make alive our spirit) which is to be born again. We then exercise our will or new nature and beleive. Salvation is a rescue. Rescue is a better word in english for the original word.

I agree with the first sentence, but then you lost me with the eisegesis in explaining what it meant. Everything you stated cannot be proven from Scripture, but is man's theology.

And none of them could keep the law. Jesus had to come to save us from our inability.

Yes, the same inability to come to God all on our own and save ourselves. Impossible, and what the meaning of John 1:13 is really saying.

 

[reformedbeliever]

No, can you show why it would give us a reason to boast?

I agree with the first sentence, but then you lost me with the eisegesis in explaining what it meant. Everything you stated cannot be proven from Scripture, but is man's theology.

Yes, the same inability to come to God all on our own and save ourselves. Impossible, and what the meaning of John 1:13 is really saying.

Is belief an exercise of the will? If so, John 1:13 says we are born of God, not our will.
If you think that to believe is not an exercise of the will, then there ya go..... I can't help you.

What I exegeted is not isogesis, but exegesis. Your belief in an exercise of the will to be born again... well its just plain not biblical. I can't even call it isogesis.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Quote:
So you chose good. Don't you see that gives you reason to boast?

No, can you show why it would give us a reason to boast?

If you chose that which is good and another chose that which is bad... then you have a reason to boast. If you can't see that.... what can I say?

 

[webdog]

If you chose that which is good and another chose that which is bad... then you have a reason to boast. If you can't see that.... what can I say?

If both have the same opportunity to choose the same thing, why would I be able to boast? Who boasts "look what I have done" when accepting a gift? That's foolish...

BTW, my belief didn't originate from within myself...from "my will". If my will had any power whatsoever, I would "will" myself to live longer than Methuselah, will myself to not sin, will myself to gravitate my car over traffic, etc.

 

[webdog]

Is belief an exercise of the will? If so, John 1:13 says we are born of God, not our will.

Belief being an exercise of the will is in no way being born of our own will. Are those who do not have faith in Christ using their "will" to go to hell? No. They are destined for hell anyway. They are just not accepting the gift of life.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If both have the same opportunity to choose the same thing, why would I be able to boast? Who boasts "look what I have done" when accepting a gift? That's foolish...

BTW, my belief didn't originate from within myself...from "my will". If my will had any power whatsoever, I would "will" myself to live longer than Methuselah, will myself to not sin, will myself to gravitate my car over traffic, etc.

What can I say? With logic like that. I never said your will gives you supernatural ability. Where is the rolling the eyes thingy?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Belief being an exercise of the will is in no way being born of our own will. Are those who do not have faith in Christ using their "will" to go to hell? No. They are destined for hell anyway. They are just not accepting the gift of life.

Now you are saying that people are destined to hell? What can I say webdog. You are all over the place.

 

[Allan]

I'm just curious Reformed,

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I understand you use the 'will of man' to butress your point, and I'm not going to deal with that - today :thumbs:

But why did God place the other 2 in there?

And in keeping in line with your beliefs This speaks specifically about the will of man (including belief/faith)

So then what exactly is the "WILL" of the flesh?

I though man only had one "WILL" but here according to how you are interpreting it appears we have more than one.

I am just courious here, and will likely respond later.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'm just curious Reformed,


I understand you use the 'will of man' to butress your point, and I'm not going to deal with that - today :thumbs:

But why did God place the other 2 in there?

And in keeping in line with your beliefs This speaks specifically about the will of man (including belief/faith)

So then what exactly is the "WILL" of the flesh?

I though man only had one "WILL" but here according to how you are interpreting it appears we have more than one.

I am just courious here, and will likely respond later.

For now I'll just quote Jameison & Faussett & Brown;

13. Which were born--a sonship therefore not of mere title and privilege, but of nature, the soul being made conscious of the vital capacities, perceptions, and emotions of a child of God, before unknown.
not of blood, &c.--not of superior human descent, not of human generation at all, not of man in any manner of way. By this elaborate threefold denial of the human source of this sonship, immense force is given to what follows,
but of God--Right royal gift, and He who confers must be absolutely divine. For who would not worship Him who can bring him into the family, and evoke within him the very life, of the sons of God?

It is not because of human descent, or ability, or an act of the will (ability) but they were born of God.

I do not have time right now.... I"ve gotta get an exchange student to the dentist. I'll post more later. Of course you know it will be from a reformed perspective.......lol

 

[MB]

Hi RB;

So you chose good. Don't you see that gives you reason to boast?

Boast about what? Being convinced by the Spirit that it was the proper choice. If man chooses, his choice is obviously influenced by the Holy Spirit. I haven't denied that. So what is there to boast about. I couldn't have made the right decision with out His persuasion.

We are born again of God, not our will. See John 1:13
An exercise of the will is an act. Our will is our nature. We are by nature children of wrath. God must act first to change that nature (quicken or make alive our spirit) which is to be born again. We then exercise our will or new nature and beleive. Salvation is a rescue. Rescue is a better word in english for the original word.

You've forgotten we aren't saved by our faith. We are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ which means we are saved by His will.
1 We are first convinced by the Holy Spirit.
2 Because we are convinced we believe but this only starts the process. It isn't our belief that saves us because it isn't good enough to save us.
3 It is only when we have been convinced by the Holy Spirit that we can make the right decision for Christ.
4 We are not saved by our faith. If not by our own faith how is it we could ever hope to boast?
5. Read this verse carefully;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's faith is it that justifies us. It isn't ours because we have to put on the righteoussness of Christ in order for His faith to be applied to us in His righteousness.
It acknowledges that the faith man has and the faith we are saved by are not the same. We cannot be saved by our faith and the bible never says we are. How ever it does say we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus' faith that saves us. How can man boast except to boast about Jesus Christ?. Calvinist and what I believe are not that far apart on our not saving our selves. It's just minor details.

And none of them could keep the law. Jesus had to come to save us from our inability.

Inability has nothing to do with it. Man originally had peace with God but in Adam we lost our peace not because of Satan or Eve but because man made a choice. Choice can only come with information with out information there is no choice. Satan freely gave that information to Adam and God freely gives that information to undo what we all did in Adam.

I have never seen one scripture that says we are regenerated first.
Paul said;
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
He didn't say that it is, of grace that be by faith.
The bible say to believe and we will be saved. It doesn't say we will be saved and then believe.
I know this is frustrating both for you and me. I don't care how you believe. You do believe, and that makes you and I brothers. Regardless of the how's or the why's of it I thank God we both believe in Jesus Christ.
MB