Does man have a voluntary will?

[reformedbeliever]

Boast about what? Being convinced by the Spirit that it was the proper choice. If man chooses, his choice is obviously influenced by the Holy Spirit. I haven't denied that. So what is there to boast about. I couldn't have made the right decision with out His persuasion.

Does God convict every person? According to the free will view He does. Does the Holy Spirit "influence" every man the same?
If you say yes to all the above, then there is something about you that caused you to choose where others didn't. If that cause is your good choice, (remember God influences eveyone equally according to the free will view) then you have something to boast about.
Does He persuade all equally? Or is there an elect before the foundation of the world?

You've forgotten we aren't saved by our faith.

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe the bible.

We are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ which means we are saved by His will.

We are saved by Jesus being faithful (trusting His Father) and going to the cross for us. I agree it is all by His will we are saved, not our own.

1 We are first convinced by the Holy Spirit.
2 Because we are convinced we believe but this only starts the process. It isn't our belief that saves us because it isn't good enough to save us.
3 It is only when we have been convinced by the Holy Spirit that we can make the right decision for Christ.
4 We are not saved by our faith. If not by our own faith how is it we could ever hope to boast?
5. Read this verse carefully;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's faith is it that justifies us. It isn't ours because we have to put on the righteoussness of Christ in order for His faith to be applied to us in His righteousness.
It acknowledges that the faith man has and the faith we are saved by are not the same. We cannot be saved by our faith and the bible never says we are. How ever it does say we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus' faith that saves us. How can man boast except to boast about Jesus Christ?. Calvinist and what I believe are not that far apart on our not saving our selves. It's just minor details.

See my answer to the second of your quotes. Improper exegesis.

Inability has nothing to do with it. Man originally had peace with God but in Adam we lost our peace not because of Satan or Eve but because man made a choice. Choice can only come with information with out information there is no choice. Satan freely gave that information to Adam and God freely gives that information to undo what we all did in Adam.

After the fall, inability has everything to do with it. I've asked you before, could Adam and Eve have chosen differently than they did? Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He stood as slain before Adam and Eve existed. They could not have chosen differently.

I have never seen one scripture that says we are regenerated first.
Paul said;
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
He didn't say that it is, of grace that be by faith.
The bible say to believe and we will be saved. It doesn't say we will be saved and then believe.
I know this is frustrating both for you and me. I don't care how you believe. You do believe, and that makes you and I brothers. Regardless of the how's or the why's of it I thank God we both believe in Jesus Christ.
MB

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8

If this is not saying that we are saved by grace through faith, what is it saying MB?

Faith is trusting what Jesus has done for us. We trust Jesus after we are born of the Spirit. John 1:13
Trusting (or faith) is a gift from God. Faith is not an act of the will in order to be born again.

Yes the Bible says to believe and we will be saved. That is a command given by God to everyone inclusively. If He did not command that, He would not be just in condemning anyone. They could say, "you never told me". Actually He is just in condemning the whole human race, it is by His grace through faith that we are saved.

It is not frustrating for me. I understand it. I do care how you believe. Give Almighty Sovereign God the credit for it all, and do not claim one part of the credit for your salvation. Salvation is all of God, and He does not save everyone.

I also thank God that He has caused us to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Grace and Peace brother.

 

[webdog]

Now you are saying that people are destined to hell? What can I say webdog. You are all over the place.

Are you saying all men without God are automatically destined to Heaven, then? Now you are a universalist? All men deserve hell, and without God's grace are destined there. I cant' believe you disagree.

 

[webdog]

What can I say? With logic like that. I never said your will gives you supernatural ability. Where is the rolling the eyes thingy?

That's the kind of power your strawmen arguments give to the non cal meaning of "free will".

 

[GordonSlocum]

Man has a voluntary will of his own concerning Salvation and it is provable from scripture. Lev 7:16, Lev 22:19, Lev 22:21; Exo 35:5, Exo 35:21, Exo 35:29, Exo 36:3; Psa 40:8, Psa 110:3, 2Co 8:12, 2Co 9:7

Can anything voluntary done by man be manipulated by someone other than the man and still remain voluntary?
If man does have a voluntary will of his own and at the same time all that man does is destined to happen regardless of this voluntary will. Then none of those verses above can be true.

I have considered the possibility that every action of men is dictated by God's foreknowledge. I have considered that God could have planned all that we do. It's just that anything "voluntary" contradicts these ideas.
MB

I personally hold that man has free will. I don't see a conflict in man's limited freedom and God's sovereignty.

Example: A man is driving down a road. This man is a lost man. God knows form eternity by his absolute knowledge, which we call prescience, foresight , or foreknowledge that this man will never respond to the Gospel. He will freely reject the truth all his life. However, there is God's overall sovereign will or plan. God in this example know that if this man turns to the left in the fork of the road that the cause and effects will not be according to the plan. So, God places circumstances and situation in the path which in essence forces this man to turn right instead. Did the man freely make the choice? Yes - Was he totally free? No - Was he free within his limited capacity? Yes

The same situation could be used of a saved person who from within his saved state does not see the sovereign plan in its details (all we have is the Bible) and decides to go left instead of right and God prevents the left turn and makes sure it is right.

I know this is a simplification of the subject, but to avoid endless statements using all the silver dollar words and concepts I personally think it is will make the point.

Now as to salvation: We all know what Romans says. Someone is sent, the someone preaches, another someone hears, and yet again still another person believes. In this the Gospel is the tool of God that is "light" to the "sin sick depraved soul". At the point of hearing man can either reject or accept the truth. In my view man is capable of recognizing the truth because the Gospel sheds light on his state. He sees his condition and hear the provision and then is faced with accepting or rejecting. This is not a work, because it was not Man's plan but God's. If man had devised the plan it would be man's work. Therein is the difference between the Calvinist view and my view. (Do not call me a Arminiam or I will punch your light out) time to laugh.

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is not long free. Some say yes I say no. While in the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the Sovereign Will / Plan.

To me if God did not have absolute knowledge, absolute power and the absolute will to do all things in accordance with His absolute holiness then He would not be able to have a plan that includes all the possibilities and know all actuals, by which He gives us a glimpse into them in the Bible. .

An other example: Kingdome "X" decides to go to war with kingdom". "X" has to cross a large body of water to get to "Y". Kingdom's "X" plans are to do so which are freely chosen do not jive with God's sovereign plan. So what happens. God destroys the fleet of ships, or brings in to existence conditions by which Kingdom "X" can not reach "Y" in order to destroy it. We see examples of this in the Bible over and over.

Moses, of which no one can dispute is in Heaven, decided to strike the rock instead of speak to it. He is saved mind you, but God did not let his sin interfere with His sovereign will. So all acts of freedom are actually free, but can not stop the sovereign plan / will of God.

Are there realms of freedom that we can function in that have enough moving room that it does not interfere with the overall sovereign will. I would say yes. But the real by or of which this occurs is also a creation and allowance of that creation. There in is our limited freedom.

So for me I separate the salvation issue in one respect from the mechanical aspects of the historical settings and events.

The US goes to war. Both lost and save are fighting and both are dying. The lost ness and saved ness are for me fee acts of acceptance or rejection and the process of serving in the war is in keeping with the sovereign plan for history.

Well that is how I see it. For me it fits, all the parts are in harmony, God is sovereign, man is limited in freedom but free within his limits.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Example: A man is driving down a road. This man is a lost man. God knows form eternity by his absolute knowledge, which we call prescience, foresight , or foreknowledge that this man will never respond to the Gospel. He will freely reject the truth all his life. However, there is God's overall sovereign will or plan. God in this example know that if this man turns to the left in the fork of the road that the cause and effects will not be according to the plan. So, God places circumstances and situation in the path which in essence forces this man to turn right instead. Did the man freely make the choice? Yes - Was he totally free? No - Was he free within his limited capacity? Yes

Welcome to Calvinism! You finally see the light!

The same situation could be used of a saved person who from within his saved state does not see the sovereign plan in its details (all we have is the Bible) and decides to go left instead of right and God prevents the left turn and makes sure it is right.

Welcome again!

Now as to salvation: We all know what Romans says. Someone is sent, the someone preaches, another someone hears, and yet again still another person believes. In this the Gospel is the tool of God that is "light" to the "sin sick depraved soul". At the point of hearing man can either reject or accept the truth. In my view man is capable of recognizing the truth because the Gospel sheds light on his state. He sees his condition and hear the provision and then is faced with accepting or rejecting. This is not a work, because it was not Man's plan but God's. If man had devised the plan it would be man's work. Therein is the difference between the Calvinist view and my view. (Do not call me a Arminiam or I will punch your light out) time to laugh.

Oops. You just fell away from Calvinism, and biblical truth. Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not cast them out."
If you say they can reject the Gospel after hearing spiritually, then you disagree with Jesus.

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is not long free. Some say yes I say no. While in the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the Sovereign Will / Plan.

Will you read and rewrite this? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

To me if God did not have absolute knowledge, absolute power and the absolute will to do all things in accordance with His absolute holiness then He would not be able to have a plan that includes all the possibilities and know all actuals, by which He gives us a glimpse into them in the Bible.

Still not sure what you are saying. If you are saying that God knows what men might do, as in He knows all the "possible" choices of men, that is saying that God does not have complete knowledge.... that He has to depend on man to act first, before He can know. I hope you are not saying that.

An other example: Kingdome "X" decides to go to war with kingdom". "X" has to cross a large body of water to get to "Y". Kingdom's "X" plans are to do so which are freely chosen do not jive with God's sovereign plan. So what happens. God destroys the fleet of ships, or brings in to existence conditions by which Kingdom "X" can not reach "Y" in order to destroy it. We see examples of this in the Bible over and over.

Agreed! God is in absolute control of all His creation.

Moses, of which no one can dispute is in Heaven, decided to strike the rock instead of speak to it. He is saved mind you, but God did not let his sin interfere with His sovereign will. So all acts of freedom are actually free, but can not stop the sovereign plan / will of God.

I would still say it was God's plan, wouldn't you?

Are there realms of freedom that we can function in that have enough moving room that it does not interfere with the overall sovereign will. I would say yes. But the real by or of which this occurs is also a creation and allowance of that creation. There in is our limited freedom.

I would say that God is actively involved in even the most minute things... such as sparrows falling and the count of the hair on your head... or lack of in my case. :laugh:

So for me I separate the salvation issue in one respect from the mechanical aspects of the historical settings and events.

Awwww.... and I thought you finally saw the light. :tear:

The US goes to war. Both lost and save are fighting and both are dying. The lost ness and saved ness are for me fee acts of acceptance or rejection and the process of serving in the war is in keeping with the sovereign plan for history.

Now I'm not sure how to comment upon this quote... seeing how you think men have limited freedom one minute... and the next absolute freedom.

 

[MB]

Does God convict every person? According to the free will view He does. Does the Holy Spirit "influence" every man the same?

To be convicted is to be convinced of our sins. There are men that are so arrogant that they don't believe, they have ever sinned. The very mention of His name shines the light on them and they either Love Him or Hate Him because He is God.
The answer to your first question is yes.
The Holy Spirit is always present He is part of the God head, and influences the whole world. That doesn't mean that the whole world receives Him with readiness of mind. So yes He does influence every man.

If you say yes to all the above, then there is something about you that caused you to choose where others didn't. If that cause is your good choice, (remember God influences eveyone equally according to the free will view) then you have something to boast about.
Does He persuade all equally? Or is there an elect before the foundation of the world?

That sounds pretty clever but it doesn't give me anything to boast about. God simply offers Salvation to everyone.
The reason I would have nothing to boast about is that I'm still not saved by anything that I do or have done. I'm saved because of what Christ did. He died for our sins and left us with the possibility of Salvation that we might be saved not that we would be John 3:17. Salvation is only possible, it isn't predestined.
It was Christ that died for me.
It was the Holy Spirit that convinced me.
It is by His faith that I'm saved not my own.
It is by His decisions that I or anyone else is saved.
Those decisions and His will were that man must believe in Christ in order to receive the gift " His Grace and Faith" It is by faith that we receive the gift of grace where in we also receive the faith of Christ.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
In order for man to believe he must decide to by his own faith. The reason for my decision was readiness of mind, willingness of the heart and none of this was possible with out Him creating me with a voluntary will to begin with. Still some think I have something to boast about.

God created man the way man is. All men have a voluntary will. There is no scriptural support for particular election. Man is not favored particularity. Not that you boast about this but, certainly does give you grounds to do so. Besides, most who do boast about them selves rarely need a true reason, they usually make one up.

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe the bible.



We are saved by Jesus being faithful (trusting His Father) and going to the cross for us. I agree it is all by His will we are saved, not our own.

I'm glad you do

See my answer to the second of your quotes. Improper exegesis.

After the fall, inability has everything to do with it. I've asked you before, could Adam and Eve have chosen differently than they did? Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He stood as slain before Adam and Eve existed. They could not have chosen differently.

Foreknowledge does not write the actions of men. What God knows man will do is the result of man doing it. Not the result of God knowing it. This is mans logic. Logic the science man uses to figure things out. Science does get somethings right but it's reliability down through the centuries has proved it self wrong on more than one occasion.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8

If this is not saying that we are saved by grace through faith, what is it saying MB?

To me it says we are saved by Grace through the faith of Christ and it's not of our selves.

Faith is trusting what Jesus has done for us. We trust Jesus after we are born of the Spirit. John 1:13
Trusting (or faith) is a gift from God. Faith is not an act of the will in order to be born again.

Faith is trusting in the faith of Jesus. This is man's faith but even this is the result of being convinced by the Holy Spirit. Man didn't just up and have faith all by himself.

Yes the Bible says to believe and we will be saved. That is a command given by God to everyone inclusively. If He did not command that, He would not be just in condemning anyone. They could say, "you never told me". Actually He is just in condemning the whole human race, it is by His grace through faith that we are saved.

All true but this view overlooks that a command to believe doesn't help if man can't believe. If man is kept from a responding by being disabled by the God who created man. This is something God is responsible for. Why command man to believe if man cannot believe?. Then hold man responsible for what he on his own couldn't do. This would be unjust and God is just.

It is not frustrating for me. I understand it. I do care how you believe. Give Almighty Sovereign God the credit for it all, and do not claim one part of the credit for your salvation. Salvation is all of God, and He does not save everyone.

It's frustrating for me because, I care how you believe. We are both branches of the same vine. I care about how every man believes. I pray that all men will believe and come to Him and be saved.

I also thank God that He has caused us to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Grace and Peace brother.

Of course I agree;
Graces and Peace to you as well Brother.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Gordon;

I personally hold that man has free will. I don't see a conflict in man's limited freedom and God's sovereignty.

I agree in that Sovereignty is the authority to control and not the action of controlling.

Example: A man is driving down a road. This man is a lost man. God knows form eternity by his absolute knowledge, which we call prescience, foresight , or foreknowledge that this man will never respond to the Gospel. He will freely reject the truth all his life. However, there is God's overall sovereign will or plan. God in this example know that if this man turns to the left in the fork of the road that the cause and effects will not be according to the plan. So, God places circumstances and situation in the path which in essence forces this man to turn right instead. Did the man freely make the choice? Yes - Was he totally free? No - Was he free within his limited capacity? Yes

"Freedom"; What a controversial word. We live in a country where we are told we are free but we are still governed by laws or restrictions. Not to mention they are taking our freedoms away from us all the time. Is there no wonder most have no real understanding of it. I don't necessarily believe there is such a thing as true freedom. However there is will and desire and voluntary thought. but somehow somewhere there is someone wanting to take even that away for us.
I agree that God has foreknowledge because, that is it's only understandable definition there can be to us. To us it is foreknowledge but to Him it is simply knowing all there is to know. There is no "before" to God because God doesn't live in time nor is He ruled by it. I believe God sees all times of man at once like looking at a photograph of the complete history of the world all enclosed in one picture. There is noting that He doesn't know about us but what He knows about what we do is because we do it and not because He knows it.

The same situation could be used of a saved person who from within his saved state does not see the sovereign plan in its details (all we have is the Bible) and decides to go left instead of right and God prevents the left turn and makes sure it is right.

You'd have to be able to explain the actions of Jonah if this were true. If God did control every action of men then Jonah could not have rebelled when told to go to Nineveh. It's not that God didn't convince Jonah but the fact that Jonah was God's man and refused to go until he was convinced to go anyway. God could have just as easily prevented Jonah from rebelling in the first place because God knew Jonah would rebel. You could say well God made him rebel but then this is sin and God doesn't make man sin for any purpose.

I know this is a simplification of the subject, but to avoid endless statements using all the silver dollar words and concepts I personally think it is will make the point.

Now as to salvation: We all know what Romans says. Someone is sent, the someone preaches, another someone hears, and yet again still another person believes. In this the Gospel is the tool of God that is "light" to the "sin sick depraved soul". At the point of hearing man can either reject or accept the truth. In my view man is capable of recognizing the truth because the Gospel sheds light on his state. He sees his condition and hear the provision and then is faced with accepting or rejecting. This is not a work, because it was not Man's plan but God's. If man had devised the plan it would be man's work. Therein is the difference between the Calvinist view and my view. (Do not call me a Arminiam or I will punch your light out) time to laugh.

I'd just have to turn the other cheek and you might just hurt your hand on my hard head. LOL:laugh:
I agree that man has a decision and I also agree that while voluntary it still has it's restrictions ("one must believe first").

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is not long free. Some say yes I say no.

I agree;
I believe that it's because of God's Sovereignty and plan that man has a voluntary choice to make. It isn't because of a plan for any one man in particular but the same plan for all men every where. to either accept Christ or reject Him.
It's true that God knows who will and won't be saved but He knows because of His omni presence. He isn't only in all places at the same time but also in all times

While in the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the Sovereign Will / Plan.

I agree here with everything except there being a Non elect. If Christ died for the whole world who is it that He didn't die for?. He chose to die for everyone, so everyone might be saved. John 3:17. Is there really a non elect? I don't see one in scripture.

To me if God did not have absolute knowledge, absolute power and the absolute will to do all things in accordance with His absolute holiness then He would not be able to have a plan that includes all the possibilities and know all actuals, by which He gives us a glimpse into them in the Bible. .

An other example: Kingdome "X" decides to go to war with kingdom". "X" has to cross a large body of water to get to "Y". Kingdom's "X" plans are to do so which are freely chosen do not jive with God's sovereign plan. So what happens. God destroys the fleet of ships, or brings in to existence conditions by which Kingdom "X" can not reach "Y" in order to destroy it. We see examples of this in the Bible over and over.

Moses, of which no one can dispute is in Heaven, decided to strike the rock instead of speak to it. He is saved mind you, but God did not let his sin interfere with His sovereign will. So all acts of freedom are actually free, but can not stop the sovereign plan / will of God.

Are there realms of freedom that we can function in that have enough moving room that it does not interfere with the overall sovereign will. I would say yes. But the real by or of which this occurs is also a creation and allowance of that creation. There in is our limited freedom.

So for me I separate the salvation issue in one respect from the mechanical aspects of the historical settings and events.

The US goes to war. Both lost and save are fighting and both are dying. The lost ness and saved ness are for me fee acts of acceptance or rejection and the process of serving in the war is in keeping with the sovereign plan for history.

Well that is how I see it. For me it fits, all the parts are in harmony, God is sovereign, man is limited in freedom but free within his limits.

Well said, Thankyou for your response brother Gordon.
MB

 

[GordonSlocum]

Oops. You just fell away from Calvinism, and biblical truth. Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not cast them out."
If you say they can reject the Gospel after hearing spiritually, then you disagree with Jesus.

The only way this is true is to accept the fact of God's Absolute Knowledge. God knows from all eternity the decisions man makes to receive Christ. God The Father Gives to Jesus All of whom He foresaw believe and they will come. God is not limited in knowledge as we are and His statements are predicated on the basis of His absolute knowledge which we understand as foreknowledge, prescience, or foresight.

Post Correction / Clarification

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is no longer free. Some say yes I say no. In the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the all inclusive Sovereign Will / Plan.

To me if God did not have absolute knowledge, absolute power and the absolute will to do all things in accordance with His absolute holiness then He would not be able to have a plan that includes all the possibilities and know all actuals, by which He gives us a glimpse into them in the Bible.


Still not sure what you are saying. If you are saying that God knows what men might do, as in He knows all the "possible" choices of men, that is saying that God does not have complete knowledge.... that He has to depend on man to act first, before He can know. I hope you are not saying that.

Yes, God knows all the possibilities real and what might have been. Nothing escapes his ability, His Absolute Knowledge. All possibilities and there outcomes are known by God. If God did not know the what ifs He would not have Absolute Knowledge. There is not Absolute knowledge if there is not the Absolute Knowledge of all what ifs and there outcomes. It is impossible for God not to know all real and what ifs.

Moses, of which no one can dispute is in Heaven, decided to strike the rock instead of speak to it. He is saved mind you, but God did not let his sin interfere with His sovereign will. So all acts of freedom are actually free, but can not stop the sovereign plan / will of God.


I would still say it was God's plan, wouldn't you?

We both agree that all that is - is God's Will / Plan. It is the how of the plan we disagree on. You sees God picking a man who is so dead He can't trust until he is first regenerated where as my view sees man as having the capacity to believe and his deadness is not of the extent by which he must be regenerated. Trust in the truth and acknowledgement of his condition results in regeneration. That really is the difference. We both understand that. But we continue to express and try to persuade each other.

 

[GordonSlocum]

You'd have to be able to explain the actions of Jonah if this were true. If God did control every action of men then Jonah could not have rebelled when told to go to Nineveh. It's not that God didn't convince Jonah but the fact that Jonah was God's man and refused to go until he was convinced to go anyway. God could have just as easily prevented Jonah from rebelling in the first place because God knew Jonah would rebel. You could say well God made him rebel but then this is sin and God doesn't make man sin for any purpose.

When God places a road block is in His hands. He knows the heart and He knows when and where to apply pressure, road blocks, circumstances. God knew that Jonah would repent under the circumstances of which God permitted. Johan was free to rebel and to repent. We have just expressed it differently but as I see your statement it agrees with my intent and understanding.

I agree;
I believe that it's because of God's Sovereignty and plan that man has a voluntary choice to make. It isn't because of a plan for any one man in particular but the same plan for all men every where. to either accept Christ or reject Him.
It's true that God knows who will and won't be saved but He knows because of His omni presence. He isn't only in all places at the same time but also in all times

Expressed differently but we agree

Originally Posted by GordonSlocum
While in the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the Sovereign Will / Plan.


I agree here with everything except there being a Non elect. If Christ died for the whole world who is it that He didn't die for?. He chose to die for everyone, so everyone might be saved. John 3:17. Is there really a non elect? I don't see one in scripture.

Non-elect to me is not arbitrary but an expression as in contra distinction to the term elect. In my world, the here and now a lost person is non-elect and when He believes he is Elect. In God's Real on the basis of His absolute knowledge He declares all that will believe as appointed, chosen, or elect in Christ from the foundation of the world. We are saying the same thing just in different ways.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Gordon, MB, Skypair etc....... you all seem to have God sovereign in all things except salvation. I wonder why that is?

If it was not for the sovereign grace of God... I'd be headed to hell. I give Him absolutely all the credit for His sovereign grace... you have to give yourself some of the credit. In the reformed view, God builds the bridge all the way across the gulf. In the free-will view, man and God build the bridge till it meets in the middle.

Please come to see the light. God is absolutely sovereign in all things, including salvation. Grace and peace.

 

[GordonSlocum]

You tried. I will just stick to God’s word. Don’t need Calvin's philosophical theology to form my thinking, or redefine God. I’ll just rely upon the Word.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You tried. I will just stick to God’s word. Don’t need Calvin's philosophical theology to form my thinking, or redefine God. I’ll just rely upon the Word.

Gordon, I do not mean to talk down to you. Do you think Calvin did not rely upon the Word?

Why don't you tell me how many, and the names of the commentaries which you have writen, so we can become better informed?

There are many non-reformed theologians who appreciate and admire Calvin's commentaries for the very scholarly, biblical, hermeneutical works that they are. For you to put down such a fine theologian, and for you to not have any works to dispute his, speaks volumes about yourself.

Forgive me for setting you straight.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Man has a voluntary will of his own concerning Salvation and it is provable from scripture. Lev 7:16, Lev 22:19, Lev 22:21; Exo 35:5, Exo 35:21, Exo 35:29, Exo 36:3; Psa 40:8, Psa 110:3, 2Co 8:12, 2Co 9:7
Can anything voluntary done by man be manipulated by someone other than the man and still remain voluntary?

If man does have a voluntary will of his own and at the same time all that man does is destined to happen regardless of this voluntary will. Then none of those verses above can be true.

I have considered the possibility that every action of men is dictated by God's foreknowledge. I have considered that God could have planned all that we do. It's just that anything "voluntary" contradicts these ideas.
MB

Please note that the Scriptures in Leviticus, Exodus, the Psalms and Paul's letters were written to those who belonged to God by virtue of nationality (chosen Israel) in the Old Testament, and by virtue of God's election of them, as adressees of Paul's letter shows.

Secondly, note that they were either petitioning forgiveness of their sins as God's people, not for salvation. In salvation, you become one of God's own, and that is God's choice. You do not make yourself born again. The Spirit causes your rebirth, and the cause is not your petitioning, or your prayers, or your contriteness. The cause is God's mercy, and God says He will be merciful to whom He will be merciful. Paul tells Titus, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us".

Therefore, man does not have a voluntary will with regards to his salvation.

Israel is a picture of God's people, as well as the vehicle by which the Messiah came. Israel also typifies the fact that God's people are the holders of Divine Truth as to who He is and who they are.

Just as one does not choose to be born a Jew, a member of national Israel, and therefore, of God's earthly chosen people to whom He revealed Himself, so one does not will himself to be born again and part of God's true Israel. It is God's work.

God bless.

 

[MB]

Hi RB;

Gordon, MB, Skypair etc....... you all seem to have God sovereign in all things except salvation. I wonder why that is?

If it was not for the sovereign grace of God... I'd be headed to hell. I give Him absolutely all the credit for His sovereign grace... you have to give yourself some of the credit. In the reformed view, God builds the bridge all the way across the gulf. In the free-will view, man and God build the bridge till it meets in the middle.

I believe the reason you see our view as you obviously do is because you do not fully understand our beliefs. Man does have a part to play in his own Salvation but you have interpreted it to mean that man is saved because of his own efforts. This isn't true. We believe in Christ that we might be saved by His faith and not our own. As I have already explained about the word "might" This doesn't mean we will be saved but indeed is the only way we might be saved. Christ has already built the bridge all we have to do is cross it. The bridge being the work of Christ. Never the less we must cross it. You think if we have to cross it we are saving our selves. This isn't true, because with out the bridge we can't cross the gulf. It the work of Christ that is our Salvation.

Please come to see the light. God is absolutely sovereign in all things, including salvation. Grace and peace.

Sovereignty has nothing to do with control of every single thought of man.
It is only defined as authority to control. This doesn't mean that the one with Sovereignty has to maintain His Sovereignty by orchestrating everything including mans own sin. In fact God doesn't have to maintain anything with in Himself He is Sovereign because, He is. Not because he does all of mans thinking for him. God is greater than that.
MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Sovereignty has nothing to do with control of every single thought of man.
It is only defined as authority to control. This doesn't mean that the one with Sovereignty has to maintain His Sovereignty by orchestrating everything including mans own sin. In fact God doesn't have to maintain anything with in Himself He is Sovereign because, He is. Not because he does all of mans thinking for him. God is greater than that.

I do not think Reformed Believer or any of the Calvinists on this board have ever espoused the doctrine or the idea that God orchestrates everything, including man's own sin.
That is your interpretation of what they believe.
That is absolutely not true, and very heretical.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I do not think Reformed Believer or any of the Calvinists on this board have ever espoused the doctrine or the idea that God orchestrates everything, including man's own sin.
That is your interpretation of what they believe.
That is absolutely not true, and very heretical.

Pinoy, MB seems to think that because we believe God decrees all that happens, that He is the author of sin. He fails to see that just because God planned the things that happened with Joseph, what men meant for evil, God meant for good. God does not have to orchestrate evil. Men do that just fine on their own. They are so full of error, I'm actually tired of debating with them. They keep repeating the same mistakes over and over......... as if that will make them right.

Thanks for your defense of me Pinoy. Grace and peace brother.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon, I do not mean to talk down to you. Do you think Calvin did not rely upon the Word?

Why don't you tell me how many, and the names of the commentaries which you have writen, so we can become better informed?

There are many non-reformed theologians who appreciate and admire Calvin's commentaries for the very scholarly, biblical, hermeneutical works that they are. For you to put down such a fine theologian, and for you to not have any works to dispute his, speaks volumes about yourself.

Forgive me for setting you straight.

Actually I have written one commentary. I think all students of the Bible are required to write at least one commentary. If you have a degree from a half way decent theological school then you no doubt were required to write one too.

I have my share of commentaries. I have read my share of commentaries over the years because I had to and because I wanted to. I have written a lot of commentary but none of it in such a way that it favors a book form. Have you?

You question implies that if I have not written a host of works that my intelligence is less than yours, and certainly implied of those whom you refer.

Instead of pitting me against them just defend your view. Do it from Scripture and with whatever language skills you have. You don't need Calvin, or anyone else to articulate your view do you?

I don't.

 

[skypair]

Gordon, MB, Skypair etc....... you all seem to have God sovereign in all things except salvation. I wonder why that is?

Oh, contrare' Pierre. :laugh: God is not sovereign in the sin of man either. Are you saying that God chooses people should sin?? Are you saying He tempts or "draws" them to sin??

I guess there's a whole world out there that you don't know about, reform! It's called the kingdom of Satan. God chooses ALL to salvation and likewise Satan chooses ALL to sin. Two kingdoms, reform. It's a "war," Eph 6. Choose your kingdom, reform. But I suggest you choose according to scripture and not according to Calvin.

If it was not for the sovereign grace of God... I'd be headed to hell. I give Him absolutely all the credit for His sovereign grace...

I was going to give you the "BaptistBoard Humility Award" until you said "I." :laugh: Maybe YOU are right because YOU are smarter, eh?

you have to give yourself some of the credit.

Credit? What credit does that lost lamb get that it didn't resist the Shepherd?? If you would question your Calsinist dogma for just one minute, you would see that none of what free will maintains they "do" to receive salvation is worthy of any credit.

In the reformed view, God builds the bridge all the way across the gulf. In the free-will view, man and God build the bridge till it meets in the middle.

Poor characterization of free will. Man builds none of the bridge but man does need to cross it.

Please come to see the light. God is absolutely sovereign in all things, including salvation. Grace and peace.

Don't you mean "come to Calvin?" We've already come to Christ. We have made God, indeed, sovereign in our lives but His kingdom is not yet of this world so He gives you sovereign permission to tout Calvin in this domain.

skypair

 

[DQuixote]

I think that man has free will. I believe that this is an aspect of the nature of man where we were created in the image of God.

His foreknowledge and plan doesn’t preclude our free will. God has the knowledge of the choices we will choose, but allows us to make those choices.

I believe that man is unable to comprehend the mind of God, so we will probably never realize the extent of our free will or the fullness of God's plan and design while on this earth. We know God and His plan through what He reveals to us.

I thought that said it all and the thread would close. Guess not.:type:

 

[GordonSlocum]

reformedbeliever

I doubt that anyone on this forum, including yourself, would suggest that God's Sovereignty is at stake. However, any suggestion that anyone is compromising His sovereignty is not a forthright assessment. I do believe if you scan my comments closely you will find a statement somewhere close to this, "God's Sovereignty never violates his Holiness". Whatever actions, thoughts, etc that God is involved in never violates His holiness. So whatever we understand His sovereignty covers, it does so from the understanding that it can not violated His holiness.

I am not sure how you would express that. I think you would agree non-the-less. So if I might ask you to consider that understanding that in the best interest of all of us, we all are eager to defend the sovereignty of God and His Holiness too. In the end we just see it differently. We process things differently. Yes, we feel strongly about what we think, but I doubt seriously any of us on here are out to dethrone God in any shape or fashion.

Also, in all respect, I accept my limitations, but I am not beholding to Augustine, Calvin, Luther, or any past professing Christian regardless of how many books they wrote. Nor am I in the present either. If Books were the measure of truth then we have a sever conflict of interest because brilliant minds are on all sides of the argument and in life as well. Please, and I ask kindly, don't impugn my intelligence. I don't think you intended to do so. But in a sense you have.

I want to believe you are smart enough to do your own work and to argue your own case. I would not call on you to be compared to anyone that is prolific in writing books regardless of who they are and what they believe. Have your view and defend your view, but don't call my intelligence in to question simply because of the works of others. Again if this be the criterion then Calvin would lose hands down but the number of works is not a measure of truth. Only the Bible is. I say read all you can as much as you can and then do your own work, thinking, writing. The whole process of school was to teach you to do it yourself.