Does man have a voluntary will?

Does God convict every person? According to the free will view He does. Does the Holy Spirit "influence" every man the same?
If you say yes to all the above, then there is something about you that caused you to choose where others didn't. If that cause is your good choice, (remember God influences eveyone equally according to the free will view) then you have something to boast about.
Does He persuade all equally? Or is there an elect before the foundation of the world?

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe the bible.

We are saved by Jesus being faithful (trusting His Father) and going to the cross for us. I agree it is all by His will we are saved, not our own.

See my answer to the second of your quotes. Improper exegesis.

After the fall, inability has everything to do with it. I've asked you before, could Adam and Eve have chosen differently than they did? Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He stood as slain before Adam and Eve existed. They could not have chosen differently.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8

If this is not saying that we are saved by grace through faith, what is it saying MB?

Faith is trusting what Jesus has done for us. We trust Jesus after we are born of the Spirit. John 1:13
Trusting (or faith) is a gift from God. Faith is not an act of the will in order to be born again.

Yes the Bible says to believe and we will be saved. That is a command given by God to everyone inclusively. If He did not command that, He would not be just in condemning anyone. They could say, "you never told me". Actually He is just in condemning the whole human race, it is by His grace through faith that we are saved.

It is not frustrating for me. I understand it. I do care how you believe. Give Almighty Sovereign God the credit for it all, and do not claim one part of the credit for your salvation. Salvation is all of God, and He does not save everyone.

I also thank God that He has caused us to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Grace and Peace brother.

 

Are you saying all men without God are automatically destined to Heaven, then? Now you are a universalist? All men deserve hell, and without God's grace are destined there. I cant' believe you disagree.

 

That's the kind of power your strawmen arguments give to the non cal meaning of "free will".

 

I personally hold that man has free will. I don't see a conflict in man's limited freedom and God's sovereignty.

Example: A man is driving down a road. This man is a lost man. God knows form eternity by his absolute knowledge, which we call prescience, foresight , or foreknowledge that this man will never respond to the Gospel. He will freely reject the truth all his life. However, there is God's overall sovereign will or plan. God in this example know that if this man turns to the left in the fork of the road that the cause and effects will not be according to the plan. So, God places circumstances and situation in the path which in essence forces this man to turn right instead. Did the man freely make the choice? Yes - Was he totally free? No - Was he free within his limited capacity? Yes

The same situation could be used of a saved person who from within his saved state does not see the sovereign plan in its details (all we have is the Bible) and decides to go left instead of right and God prevents the left turn and makes sure it is right.

I know this is a simplification of the subject, but to avoid endless statements using all the silver dollar words and concepts I personally think it is will make the point.

Now as to salvation: We all know what Romans says. Someone is sent, the someone preaches, another someone hears, and yet again still another person believes. In this the Gospel is the tool of God that is "light" to the "sin sick depraved soul". At the point of hearing man can either reject or accept the truth. In my view man is capable of recognizing the truth because the Gospel sheds light on his state. He sees his condition and hear the provision and then is faced with accepting or rejecting. This is not a work, because it was not Man's plan but God's. If man had devised the plan it would be man's work. Therein is the difference between the Calvinist view and my view. (Do not call me a Arminiam or I will punch your light out) time to laugh.

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is not long free. Some say yes I say no. While in the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the Sovereign Will / Plan.

To me if God did not have absolute knowledge, absolute power and the absolute will to do all things in accordance with His absolute holiness then He would not be able to have a plan that includes all the possibilities and know all actuals, by which He gives us a glimpse into them in the Bible. .

An other example: Kingdome "X" decides to go to war with kingdom". "X" has to cross a large body of water to get to "Y". Kingdom's "X" plans are to do so which are freely chosen do not jive with God's sovereign plan. So what happens. God destroys the fleet of ships, or brings in to existence conditions by which Kingdom "X" can not reach "Y" in order to destroy it. We see examples of this in the Bible over and over.

Moses, of which no one can dispute is in Heaven, decided to strike the rock instead of speak to it. He is saved mind you, but God did not let his sin interfere with His sovereign will. So all acts of freedom are actually free, but can not stop the sovereign plan / will of God.

Are there realms of freedom that we can function in that have enough moving room that it does not interfere with the overall sovereign will. I would say yes. But the real by or of which this occurs is also a creation and allowance of that creation. There in is our limited freedom.

So for me I separate the salvation issue in one respect from the mechanical aspects of the historical settings and events.

The US goes to war. Both lost and save are fighting and both are dying. The lost ness and saved ness are for me fee acts of acceptance or rejection and the process of serving in the war is in keeping with the sovereign plan for history.

Well that is how I see it. For me it fits, all the parts are in harmony, God is sovereign, man is limited in freedom but free within his limits.

 

Welcome to Calvinism! You finally see the light!

Welcome again!

Oops. You just fell away from Calvinism, and biblical truth. Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not cast them out."
If you say they can reject the Gospel after hearing spiritually, then you disagree with Jesus.

Will you read and rewrite this? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

Still not sure what you are saying. If you are saying that God knows what men might do, as in He knows all the "possible" choices of men, that is saying that God does not have complete knowledge.... that He has to depend on man to act first, before He can know. I hope you are not saying that.

Agreed! God is in absolute control of all His creation.

I would still say it was God's plan, wouldn't you?

I would say that God is actively involved in even the most minute things... such as sparrows falling and the count of the hair on your head... or lack of in my case. :laugh:

Awwww.... and I thought you finally saw the light. :tear:

Now I'm not sure how to comment upon this quote... seeing how you think men have limited freedom one minute... and the next absolute freedom.

 

The only way this is true is to accept the fact of God's Absolute Knowledge. God knows from all eternity the decisions man makes to receive Christ. God The Father Gives to Jesus All of whom He foresaw believe and they will come. God is not limited in knowledge as we are and His statements are predicated on the basis of His absolute knowledge which we understand as foreknowledge, prescience, or foresight.

OK - does God's sovereign will / plan mean that man's choice is no longer free. Some say yes I say no. In the sovereign will/plan salvation and lost ness are not a factor with respect to then being save or lost. It is a factor because it is a part of the complete plan. God uses both the saved/elect and lost/non-elect to accomplish his sovereign will/plan. In that sense they are a part of the all inclusive Sovereign Will / Plan.

Yes, God knows all the possibilities real and what might have been. Nothing escapes his ability, His Absolute Knowledge. All possibilities and there outcomes are known by God. If God did not know the what ifs He would not have Absolute Knowledge. There is not Absolute knowledge if there is not the Absolute Knowledge of all what ifs and there outcomes. It is impossible for God not to know all real and what ifs.

We both agree that all that is - is God's Will / Plan. It is the how of the plan we disagree on. You sees God picking a man who is so dead He can't trust until he is first regenerated where as my view sees man as having the capacity to believe and his deadness is not of the extent by which he must be regenerated. Trust in the truth and acknowledgement of his condition results in regeneration. That really is the difference. We both understand that. But we continue to express and try to persuade each other.

 

When God places a road block is in His hands. He knows the heart and He knows when and where to apply pressure, road blocks, circumstances. God knew that Jonah would repent under the circumstances of which God permitted. Johan was free to rebel and to repent. We have just expressed it differently but as I see your statement it agrees with my intent and understanding.

Expressed differently but we agree

Non-elect to me is not arbitrary but an expression as in contra distinction to the term elect. In my world, the here and now a lost person is non-elect and when He believes he is Elect. In God's Real on the basis of His absolute knowledge He declares all that will believe as appointed, chosen, or elect in Christ from the foundation of the world. We are saying the same thing just in different ways.

 

Gordon, MB, Skypair etc....... you all seem to have God sovereign in all things except salvation. I wonder why that is?

If it was not for the sovereign grace of God... I'd be headed to hell. I give Him absolutely all the credit for His sovereign grace... you have to give yourself some of the credit. In the reformed view, God builds the bridge all the way across the gulf. In the free-will view, man and God build the bridge till it meets in the middle.

Please come to see the light. God is absolutely sovereign in all things, including salvation. Grace and peace.

 

You tried. I will just stick to God’s word. Don’t need Calvin's philosophical theology to form my thinking, or redefine God. I’ll just rely upon the Word.

 

Gordon, I do not mean to talk down to you. Do you think Calvin did not rely upon the Word?

Why don't you tell me how many, and the names of the commentaries which you have writen, so we can become better informed?

There are many non-reformed theologians who appreciate and admire Calvin's commentaries for the very scholarly, biblical, hermeneutical works that they are. For you to put down such a fine theologian, and for you to not have any works to dispute his, speaks volumes about yourself.

Forgive me for setting you straight.

 

Please note that the Scriptures in Leviticus, Exodus, the Psalms and Paul's letters were written to those who belonged to God by virtue of nationality (chosen Israel) in the Old Testament, and by virtue of God's election of them, as adressees of Paul's letter shows.

Secondly, note that they were either petitioning forgiveness of their sins as God's people, not for salvation. In salvation, you become one of God's own, and that is God's choice. You do not make yourself born again. The Spirit causes your rebirth, and the cause is not your petitioning, or your prayers, or your contriteness. The cause is God's mercy, and God says He will be merciful to whom He will be merciful. Paul tells Titus, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us".

Therefore, man does not have a voluntary will with regards to his salvation.

Israel is a picture of God's people, as well as the vehicle by which the Messiah came. Israel also typifies the fact that God's people are the holders of Divine Truth as to who He is and who they are.

Just as one does not choose to be born a Jew, a member of national Israel, and therefore, of God's earthly chosen people to whom He revealed Himself, so one does not will himself to be born again and part of God's true Israel. It is God's work.

God bless.

 

I do not think Reformed Believer or any of the Calvinists on this board have ever espoused the doctrine or the idea that God orchestrates everything, including man's own sin.
That is your interpretation of what they believe.
That is absolutely not true, and very heretical.

 

Pinoy, MB seems to think that because we believe God decrees all that happens, that He is the author of sin. He fails to see that just because God planned the things that happened with Joseph, what men meant for evil, God meant for good. God does not have to orchestrate evil. Men do that just fine on their own. They are so full of error, I'm actually tired of debating with them. They keep repeating the same mistakes over and over......... as if that will make them right.

Thanks for your defense of me Pinoy. Grace and peace brother.

 

Actually I have written one commentary. I think all students of the Bible are required to write at least one commentary. If you have a degree from a half way decent theological school then you no doubt were required to write one too.

I have my share of commentaries. I have read my share of commentaries over the years because I had to and because I wanted to. I have written a lot of commentary but none of it in such a way that it favors a book form. Have you?

You question implies that if I have not written a host of works that my intelligence is less than yours, and certainly implied of those whom you refer.

Instead of pitting me against them just defend your view. Do it from Scripture and with whatever language skills you have. You don't need Calvin, or anyone else to articulate your view do you?

I don't.

 

Oh, contrare' Pierre. :laugh: God is not sovereign in the sin of man either. Are you saying that God chooses people should sin?? Are you saying He tempts or "draws" them to sin??

I guess there's a whole world out there that you don't know about, reform! It's called the kingdom of Satan. God chooses ALL to salvation and likewise Satan chooses ALL to sin. Two kingdoms, reform. It's a "war," Eph 6. Choose your kingdom, reform. But I suggest you choose according to scripture and not according to Calvin.

I was going to give you the "BaptistBoard Humility Award" until you said "I." :laugh: Maybe YOU are right because YOU are smarter, eh?

Credit? What credit does that lost lamb get that it didn't resist the Shepherd?? If you would question your Calsinist dogma for just one minute, you would see that none of what free will maintains they "do" to receive salvation is worthy of any credit.

Poor characterization of free will. Man builds none of the bridge but man does need to cross it.

Don't you mean "come to Calvin?" We've already come to Christ. We have made God, indeed, sovereign in our lives but His kingdom is not yet of this world so He gives you sovereign permission to tout Calvin in this domain.

skypair

 

I thought that said it all and the thread would close. Guess not.:type:

 

reformedbeliever

I doubt that anyone on this forum, including yourself, would suggest that God's Sovereignty is at stake. However, any suggestion that anyone is compromising His sovereignty is not a forthright assessment. I do believe if you scan my comments closely you will find a statement somewhere close to this, "God's Sovereignty never violates his Holiness". Whatever actions, thoughts, etc that God is involved in never violates His holiness. So whatever we understand His sovereignty covers, it does so from the understanding that it can not violated His holiness.

I am not sure how you would express that. I think you would agree non-the-less. So if I might ask you to consider that understanding that in the best interest of all of us, we all are eager to defend the sovereignty of God and His Holiness too. In the end we just see it differently. We process things differently. Yes, we feel strongly about what we think, but I doubt seriously any of us on here are out to dethrone God in any shape or fashion.

Also, in all respect, I accept my limitations, but I am not beholding to Augustine, Calvin, Luther, or any past professing Christian regardless of how many books they wrote. Nor am I in the present either. If Books were the measure of truth then we have a sever conflict of interest because brilliant minds are on all sides of the argument and in life as well. Please, and I ask kindly, don't impugn my intelligence. I don't think you intended to do so. But in a sense you have.

I want to believe you are smart enough to do your own work and to argue your own case. I would not call on you to be compared to anyone that is prolific in writing books regardless of who they are and what they believe. Have your view and defend your view, but don't call my intelligence in to question simply because of the works of others. Again if this be the criterion then Calvin would lose hands down but the number of works is not a measure of truth. Only the Bible is. I say read all you can as much as you can and then do your own work, thinking, writing. The whole process of school was to teach you to do it yourself.