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Does man have a voluntary will?
- Thread starter MB
- Start date
Hi RB;
I'm sorry RB, scripture doesn't say the crucifiction was predestined. it was prophesied by a prophet in the old testament. The word predestined doesn't appear in my Bible. Only the word predestinated appears in scripture, and both times it was mentioned were in Eph 1.
There is only one who spoke about it and that was Paul. None of the gospels mention it.
To say God knows before or has fore knowledge really denies His omnipresence. It appears as before to man because man is ruled by time and it's the only way man can understand it. God is everywhere at once including time. Men don't really understand omnipresence. It's to hard to conceive such a thing when you have never seen it or experinced it.
MB
reformedbeliever said:
I'm sorry RB, scripture doesn't say the crucifiction was predestined. it was prophesied by a prophet in the old testament. The word predestined doesn't appear in my Bible. Only the word predestinated appears in scripture, and both times it was mentioned were in Eph 1.
There is only one who spoke about it and that was Paul. None of the gospels mention it.
To say God knows before or has fore knowledge really denies His omnipresence. It appears as before to man because man is ruled by time and it's the only way man can understand it. God is everywhere at once including time. Men don't really understand omnipresence. It's to hard to conceive such a thing when you have never seen it or experinced it.
MB
reformedbeliever
New Member
MB said:
Well, your bible is not the only translation or version out there. My bible has predestination in Romans8:29-30 Ephesians 1:5, 11 And Acts 4:28
The KJV uses determined before in Acts 4:28
Here is the strongs definition;
G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
I thought looking up a word study on the word "choose" is something intelligent to add to the discussion. It's as intelligent as suggesting the word study of "amoral and appoint", no? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.:wavey:reformedbeliever said:
My Bible program was wrong Romans 8: 29-30 you won, that one does say predestinated. Again written by Paul. The book of acts was written by Luke and Luke was a friend of Paul and not an eye witness or disciple. Luke 1:2 col 4:14 2nd Tim. 4:11. Determined before does mean predestined or predestinated. How ever if prophecy is true about a given matter then it would have to be.reformedbeliever said:
You seem to think that I don't believe in predestination. You'd be mistaken here, I do. I feel that the way you believe in it denies the possibilities of God. If all things really are possible with God then predestination doesn't matter in Salvation.
MB
reformedbeliever
New Member
MB said:
And everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thanks for the admission.
It is because of predestination (my view of it) that I know I can be saved. As long as I depended upon myself ( to believe, have faith, to not doubt... etc) I was not a changed person. When I learned of God's choosing me before the world was created, I became a new person. I was born again. It is that important to me.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Trust
Until we believe, have faith in God and trust in Him we are depending on ourselves and not God.
The truth is we trust and then He leads, it is that basic.
Until we believe, have faith in God and trust in Him we are depending on ourselves and not God.
The truth is we trust and then He leads, it is that basic.
reformedbeliever
New Member
MB said:
I did not win, my brother. God's truth won. That is all I seek.
reformedbeliever
New Member
MB said:
Luke was the same Luke who wrote the Gospel of Luke my friend. You are quite incorrect. You better check your bible program again. :jesus:
edited to say; Ok, I see where you agree that Luke was the same one who wrote the Gospel of Luke, my bad.
But I do not understand why you think that it is not important? Should we remove that portion of scripture? I don't understand where you are coming from.
Last edited:
Hi RB;
Thankyou for reading the scripture I cited;
I take in to consideration all the testimony that disagrees with your view. Man has a voluntary will in all of the scripture that I listed on the first post. I find more all the time because I look for support for my understanding as everyone else should do as well. The concept of a voluntary will appears 17 times in scripture that I know of. So far you've show 5 times that predestination is mentioned and not one verse says we are predestined to Salvation from before the foundation of the world. It seems to me that you should be able to see that what you claim is true is disputed by scripture. For my self God's word has the last word. The thoughts and logic of men are just that, of men, but God's word is always right. Especially with the majority of witness.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
This again says any man shall know of the docrine of God if the man is willing
MB
Thankyou for reading the scripture I cited;
What I'm saying is that since Luke was a follower of Paul of course he would be likely to agree with Him. Not that Paul was wrong, I'm not saying that at all. All that I'm saying is there friendship would make lukes testimony biased. Paul was his teacher. We end up with only one witness you have to use to support your beliefs.reformedbeliever said:
I take in to consideration all the testimony that disagrees with your view. Man has a voluntary will in all of the scripture that I listed on the first post. I find more all the time because I look for support for my understanding as everyone else should do as well. The concept of a voluntary will appears 17 times in scripture that I know of. So far you've show 5 times that predestination is mentioned and not one verse says we are predestined to Salvation from before the foundation of the world. It seems to me that you should be able to see that what you claim is true is disputed by scripture. For my self God's word has the last word. The thoughts and logic of men are just that, of men, but God's word is always right. Especially with the majority of witness.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
This again says any man shall know of the docrine of God if the man is willing
MB
reformedbeliever
New Member
MB said:
Ok, MB, you misunderstand me. I have said all along that we make choices. It is God's providence that causes us to make the choices we make. I agree we make choices, but we will always choose in a manner that will be consistent with God's decreed will.
Your problem with Paul is a serious problem. We beleive that Paul was inspired by God to write all of what he wrote. The words of Paul are God's words.
There are many more verses of scripture, from Jesus Himself, which support my view. Many more from other sources as well.... including the OT. They have been posted so many times for so many people such as yourself.... that I feel it would be beating a dead horse. You can look up the debates on the board.
Luke spoke of predestination by inspiration of God, not because of Paul's influence upon him. Paul spoke of predestination and election because of God's inspiration. Acts has more than just the word predestination. It says all who were appointed to eternal life believed. It mentions that God opened people's hearts to believe.
I used to be just like you. I had been taught free will my whole life. The doctrines of sovereign grace went against all I had ever been taught. The thing is that when I came to realize the truth, it set me free. I now trust Jesus rather than my own ability. The bible has come alive, and you can not find a part that does not speak of God's sovereignty.
If you come to understand the doctrines of sovereign grace or not, it will not mean the difference of being saved or lost. God will use you with your theological understanding for His purposes. This is a debate board. These debates should sharpen our iron. If not, we should not be here.
There are few here that I have to ignore. You are not one of them. I appreciate your kind tone with me. I hope I never "sound" like i'm being indifferent with you. Forgive me if I have.
I used to be a "free will" theologist before I observed all the opinions and Scriptural support from all sides. There are points from all sides that I agree with and disagree with. I have concluded that I don't know where I stand and wonder if there is some middle ground between Calvinism and "free will" theology.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Jeep Dragon said:
The sovereignty of God and the moral agency of man is an antinomy. Two seemingly opposing truths.
Why is it that the Sovereignty of God cannot exist along with a free will of man? Maybe man thinks he can define what sovereignty is and what free-will is. Maybe they can co-exist in a way that makes absolutely no sense in human logic.reformedbeliever said:
In those theologies that can not allow for it, is where the problem lies. (like the the true Calvinist and Armenian) In the main I think it is their definitions that are what is considered incompatable. They are both (or at least can go that way) in opposite directions.Jeep Dragon said:
Just preach (or disciple) what God has revealed to you and don't worry about us others. You are accountable unto God first and foremost. Preach or teach as though it is only for the glory of God for it is by and to Him wherewith we stand or fall and nothing or no one else comes in a distant second.
One thing that frustrates me is when someone says that God cannot be Sovereign if He doesn't directly control decisions (especially when dealing with Salvation). My question is why does He have to directly control everything in order to be Sovereign? If He foreknows us, He can predestinate us by causing things to happen that He absolutely knows how we will decide on the matter. Nevertheless, man makes the decisions, yet He is in complete control by predestinating paths that lead to decisions.
Could it be possible that God does not deal with all people the same way? Maybe with some people, like the Apostle Paul, God divinely shows Himself making salvation completely irresistible, while others, He hints at it by putting things into their path until they figure it out.
It seems as if the most important thing on God's divine checklist was to have sin paid for. God cannot tolerate anything that is against His will. The reason why there were so many rules/laws/pickiness with the Father in the Old Testament was to show Israel that in our timescale, sin had not yet been paid for, thus the Father was more "frusterated" with imperfection.
Now that Jesus relieved the Father of this absolute necessity of judgment on all sin, the Father could take a sigh of relief. I know that some Calvinist claim Jesus only paid for the elect's sins, where the non-elect will pay for their own sins later. Some argue that double payment for sin makes no sense. Maybe going to hell for rejecting Jesus is not "paying for your sins" but "getting punnished for rejecting Jesus." Maybe sin is so severe that it is impossible for anyone to pay for his own sins even if he had eternity to do so. Maybe if God sent everyone to hell and poured out His infinite wrath on all men for eternity it would never relieve Him because man is incapable of existing through such extremes. Jesus was divine and capable of letting the Father pour it out until He was happy.
The issues I have concerning Calvinism is the very existance of sin (wickedness willingly commited daily directed in God's face by everyone throughout all of history which seems to indicate a choice that God cannot make against Himself) and the idea that the Father did not completely unload Himself of all His wrath when Jesus said "It is finished."
Could it be possible that God does not deal with all people the same way? Maybe with some people, like the Apostle Paul, God divinely shows Himself making salvation completely irresistible, while others, He hints at it by putting things into their path until they figure it out.
It seems as if the most important thing on God's divine checklist was to have sin paid for. God cannot tolerate anything that is against His will. The reason why there were so many rules/laws/pickiness with the Father in the Old Testament was to show Israel that in our timescale, sin had not yet been paid for, thus the Father was more "frusterated" with imperfection.
Now that Jesus relieved the Father of this absolute necessity of judgment on all sin, the Father could take a sigh of relief. I know that some Calvinist claim Jesus only paid for the elect's sins, where the non-elect will pay for their own sins later. Some argue that double payment for sin makes no sense. Maybe going to hell for rejecting Jesus is not "paying for your sins" but "getting punnished for rejecting Jesus." Maybe sin is so severe that it is impossible for anyone to pay for his own sins even if he had eternity to do so. Maybe if God sent everyone to hell and poured out His infinite wrath on all men for eternity it would never relieve Him because man is incapable of existing through such extremes. Jesus was divine and capable of letting the Father pour it out until He was happy.
The issues I have concerning Calvinism is the very existance of sin (wickedness willingly commited daily directed in God's face by everyone throughout all of history which seems to indicate a choice that God cannot make against Himself) and the idea that the Father did not completely unload Himself of all His wrath when Jesus said "It is finished."
It ( Christ's work on the cross ) was indeed finished and His soul was satisfied in contemplation of that fact .
This whole mess of saying the Lord knew what people would decide is so lame . The Lord determines where we live , and even appoints the day and manner of our death . Don't you folks realize He determines where and when we are saved ? Man remains central to too many professing Christians and God is not given the glory rightly due to Him . He mediates the means whereby we come to a saving knowledge of Himself .
All of us here ( hopefully ) agree that everyone whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the Lord will be brought to glory and no one else . Those are the ones He bought with His own blood . He purchased us . He did not purchase anyone else . He determined every detail that led to our salvation . Nothing was left to chance . The Lord does not depend on our wills -- but it has been by His will alone that we are born again .
This whole mess of saying the Lord knew what people would decide is so lame . The Lord determines where we live , and even appoints the day and manner of our death . Don't you folks realize He determines where and when we are saved ? Man remains central to too many professing Christians and God is not given the glory rightly due to Him . He mediates the means whereby we come to a saving knowledge of Himself .
All of us here ( hopefully ) agree that everyone whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the Lord will be brought to glory and no one else . Those are the ones He bought with His own blood . He purchased us . He did not purchase anyone else . He determined every detail that led to our salvation . Nothing was left to chance . The Lord does not depend on our wills -- but it has been by His will alone that we are born again .