Does man have a voluntary will?

Dragon,

There is a "middle ground." Calvinism says that God has determined everything -- much like in Greek mythology where Oedipus made choices that all led to him killing his father and marrying his mother as the gods has predicted. Oedipus only thought that he was in control according to the fable. It was really fate that determined his destiny -- much like in Calvinism.

Free will takes the opposite view. Oedipus was fiction. Neither God not the gods is deterministic.

So where Calvin and free will might well meet is regarding salvation. Calvinists say that God does everything in salvation deciding who beforehand and then just "dropping it all in their lap" at some time during their lives.

Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe.

You won't see any Calvinists who claim to be saved and not believe. They ought to look at it like Oedipus then --- that their faith was not fate. It hinged upon their belief.

Free will has no problem with the Calvinist fact that we are given faith. But faith does NOT equal belief. With faith there is proof (Heb 12:1) -- with belief there is none.

Most Calvinists came to Christ (if the have) the same way as free willers. The problem is that they began to believe in Calvinist dogma. Dogma are beliefs that have no scriptural proof but that the religion (like the Reform Church or Catholic Church) requires you to accept as a member.

Let's dispense with the dogma (did you know that "Systematic Theology" was originally called "Reform Dogma" until its concepts became offensive to many Christians?). So let's not center our discussion around dogma and we will by-and-by come to the right conclusions.

Calvinism is just a "rehash" of Greek mythology that comes down on the side of fate -- we have no control so why even try. You will find that fatalism expressed in their evangelism (Evengelism takes a "nose dive" wherever the dogma of fate is introduced into religion), in their praying (Sproul says that God doesn't change His mind in answer to your prayers), etc.

skypair

 

Interesting observation, that. And would you mind, pray, showing the Calvinists on this board the Scriptures that they quote that made you come to that conclusion about their "dogma" ?

What do you say, for example, to the following Scripture ?

Is Jesus Christ being Calvinistic, or dogmatic ?

 

Dogma, by defintion, doesn't have/require scriptural proof.

That doesn't keep them from citing incidental passages that can be misunderstood their way. Primary among them is Rom 8:29 which some (Sproul) call "the Golden Chain of Salvation." But in it, they equate "foreknowledge" with "predestination." That is, their dogma says that God foreknew because He forechose whom He would know. This is a classic case of misconstruing scripture, parsing words (2Tim 2:14), and using it as proof. "Foreknow," much to their displeasure, means what it says -- to know beforehand, to foresee.

"Dropping it all in their laps" is the "calling" mentioned in 8:30. At a time certain, Calvinists agree that God touches them.

God "draws" ALL men. That's what I get. It's the same thing as Rom 1 -- ALL men are given a glimpse of God to which they are expected to respond.

What do you make of this verse: "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men to Me." John 12:32

skypair

 

Reformbliever

Apparently you are not "... ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" 1Pet 3:15. Let me ask then -- is it "meekness" that is the issue?? or is it the salvation itself??

skypair

 

That man if left to himself will never seek out God. That is why God came to man.
And of Man, ONLY those who received Him, it was to them He gave the right to be called the Children of God.

 

And yet you become so flustered when the vast majority of believers don't agree with your interpretations through the Calvinstic bent. You don't grasp that God determinded us to teach and preach that which He has shown us. We are as God decreed us to be.
And yet you want to change the very mind of God that determind us to be and know what we espouse (that being a non-calvinistic view point)

 

This sound Calvinistic:

This sounds Calvinistic:

What baffles me is the fact that I have never (I repeat NEVER) heard these passages read or quoted by any speaker in any church I have been in. But the same people who have never quoted these passages or any passages that sound similar have quoted "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." multiple times! All of the above passages are what Jesus Himself said!

I don't consider myself a Calvinist nor a "free-will" theologian. I find myself believing that both are true in a completely illogical and unexplainable fashion.

I struggle with the idea that man knows both good and evil. This is the one idea that makes "Total depravity" not make any sense to me. If man knows good and evil, doesn't that mean he will do both? Since man does evil and by doing evil makes him imperfect, he is therefore condemned to hell. If the simple act of believing in Jesus is a choice ("good") it is possible for some people to do this "good" because they know "good." Being that total perfection is required for eternal life, couldn't God have done all the perfect work to make salvation into a simple one-time choice that anyone knowing good and evil has the capability to make such a choice. Most people when they get saved don't do so because they love God with all their hearts and want to live righteously, they just realize that God will punnish them for sinning and if He offers a free gift to them, why not take it? What is the big deal with believing/calling on the NAME of Jesus in association with salvation if the believing/calling has nothing to do with accepting the gift but rather a result of already having the gift?

Why would Jesus groan over Jerusalem and claim that He would often have gathered them to Himself, but they would not? If Jesus came not to do His own will, but that of the Father's, why would he even have a "heart" for the eternally condemned? It seems as if there is some sort of desire by Jesus to accept what has chosen to reject Him.

Assuming that the rich, young ruler never got saved, what is meant by Jesus loving him? If God predestined him to hell, doesn't that mean that God hates him?

Although I don't categorize my theology, I do believe that if all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then all of it is important to study. Preachers should preach all Scripture even when they can't explain the definition in their own theological beliefs. If the passages convice their congregation to become Calvinists/"free-will" theologists, then maybe that is the unquenched will of the Holy Spirit not held back by the bias of the preacher.

 

Truth and motives

Why do people think that logical motives must exist to get people to obey God's commandments?
Examples:
(Some lordship salvationists/kingdom exclusionists): "Why would anyone obey God if they can live however they want to and still go to heaven without God's Judgment?"

(Some free-will theologists): "If God has predetermined some to go to heaven and others to go to hell, why bother sharing my faith?"

(Some mandatory tithers): "If there is no required tithe, how do you expect the church to be financed and the Pastor to live?"

Why do we think that there has to be an immediate and harsh punnishment for not following something in order for it to occur correctly? If something is truth, let it be taught liberally even if it hurts one's logic or business model.

Blessed is the man who knows that he is forever saved yet obeys God out of pure love for Him!

Blessed is the man who believes that God has chosen all from the foundations of the world, yet still shares his faith!

Blessed is the man who believes in no fixed requirements for giving yet gives out of the abundance of his heart out of love for God!

 

The struggle should cease if you remember that Adam and Eve were not totally depraved, and their descendants (including you and me), until after they broke God's rule, therefore God said: "Behold, the man is become....."

 

You aught to come to my church. I preach verse for verse and have taught on such topics before. It's not calvinistic, for it is of those whom He foreknew. Everyone, both Cal and Non-Cal (except the open theist) alike believe God Knows every person that is His. I'm not speaking for one veiw or another I'm saying we both believe the immutable truths we just differ on some of the mechanics within those same truths.

Neither do I. Welcome to the club! We can not know the fulness of the mind of God, only that which God reveals in scripture. When we venture to trying do determind How God thought it in the sequence He thought and what in that sequence He actaully Knew or saw... We are no longer in the Biblical arena but in the philosophical one.

Yes man can do both. Scripture says our righteousness (good) is like filthy rags. Scripture NEVER says man can not do good, but that we can not do any salvic good (good that can be used toward salvation - flawless good). Scripture teach consistantly that people go to Hell because they rejected God NOT that God predetermind them to go there. As I said scriptures are consistant that we are judged on accepting or rejecting truths that God reveals to us. This is why scripture tells us from the mouth of Jesus. Beleive on me, but if you will not believe me then believe the works I do. In other words If you think I may be lieing about who I am just look at my works and believe them!
The big deal is people who get saved for fire insurance or a get of jail (punishment) free card are doing so for their own selfish and lust filled reason. It is all about them and not God. We are saved but it is because of the sake of Christ not our own. If a person is trying to escape punishment then they never understood what true salvation is. Salvation isn't punishment evasion. It is renewal unto God whom we have strayed so far from. I have never met a person who has just come to Christ say (to the effect) Glad I got out of that mess. They have usually are amazed that God hadn't killed then already. And are equally amzed and satified deep within that God would even consider sending such grace to them. It is the 'miss the judgment" mentality that usually goes off and lives like the devil cause now their saved. Well they show who they are by their the fruits they bear.

Because He loves them. Scripture tells us that God is not threw with the Jews yet and that they will once again as a nation come back to Him but now is the time of the Gentiles (Rom 9, 10 and 11 - These deals with Israel as a Nation past -9-, thier present time -10-, and future -11-)

It is a good question and one that is answered by the text. It means Jesus loved him. But there will come a day where because they rejected His love, they will be judged without it. Jesus did not come to judge but to seek and save.

I agree. We as preachers need to stop cherry picking and start once again preaching as scripture details... line upon line, and precept upon precept...
We are to preach not to sound spiritual but to make those under our preaching spiritual giants for God. Just as He must increase I must decrease... so that motto aught to be for every pastor and teacher. They must increase and I must decrease... We are to make disciples who can study to show themselves approved so they in turn can make disciples to do the same. As an old Evangelist Freddie Gage used to say. We are born (agian) to reproduce!

 

Dragon,

You sound more free will to me with some misunderstandings about Calvinism. That's good.

Let's see if we can look at those passages. Mt 25: I HAVE heard it in church. It sounds Calvinist since it omits the "foreknowledge clause" of God (which many passages do). Christ/Paul described the process at least once (Rom 8:29-30) -- if Paul is not reiterating the "process" (Calvinists call it "The Golden Chain of Salvation") elsewhere, it is because that is not his focus. Here. for example, Christ is NOT talking about how we are saved -- he is talking about the His postrib judgment.

John 6: Jesus is talking to OT-types, right? First He compares Himself to manna that came from heaven. They would have known what manna was for. Then He says none come to me unless the Father draw them. Think about this, Dragon --- how are the OT saints going to come to Christ being they are dead? God has to resurrect them, "draw" them, resusitated by the Spirit, out of the ground, right? Which is what Job 14:2-22, 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, 12:11-13, etal. are talking about. And yes, it is also true of NT and the manner is the same - by the Holy Spirit.

John 17: "give life to as many as thou hast given Him" sounds Calvinist again, right? But again we look to the OT as well and see that God has to deliver them to life again before they will know Christ!

Dragon, most Calvinists are a "one covenant" people -- "Covenant Theologists." They don't recognize separate OT covenants with Abraham, David, etc. They beleive that everyone comes to Christ as if He were already come from the beginning. Thus, they have huge confusion considering when and how the OT saints come to Christ.

Good and evil: Which did Adam already know? Good, right? God didn't make him ignorant of good so that he would only know evil. God even said, "Now they will be like us knowing GOOD and evil." Thus, another error of Calvinism is exposed.

skypair

 

Dragon,

You sound more free will to me with some misunderstandings about Calvinism. That's good.

Let's see if we can look at those passages. Mt 25: I HAVE heard it in church. It sounds Calvinist since it speaks of "efore the foundations of earth" -- but it omits the "foreknowledge clause" of God (which many passages do). Christ/Paul described the salvation process at least once (Rom 8:29-30). If Paul, etc. do not reiterate the "process" (Calvinists call it "The Golden Chain of Salvation") elsewhere, it is because that is not his focus. Here. for example, Christ is NOT talking about how we are saved -- he is talking about the His postrib judgment.

John 6: Jesus is talking to OT-types, right? First He compares Himself to manna that came from heaven. They would have known what manna was for. Then He says none come to me unless the Father draw them. Think about this, Dragon --- how are the OT saints going to come to Christ being they are dead? God has to resurrect them, "draw" them, resusitated by the Spirit, out of the ground, right? Which is what Job 14:2-22, 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, 12:11-13, etal. are talking about. And yes, it is also true of NT and the manner is the same - by the Holy Spirit.

John 17: "give life to as many as thou hast given Him" sounds Calvinist again, right? But again we look to the OT as well and see that God has to deliver them to life again before they will know Christ!

Dragon, most Calvinists are a "one covenant" people -- "Covenant Theologists." They don't recognize separate OT covenants with Abraham, David, etc. They beleive that everyone comes to Christ as if He were already come from the beginning. Thus, they have huge confusion considering when and how the OT saints come to Christ.

Good and evil: Which did Adam already know? Good, right? God didn't make him ignorant of good so that he would only know evil. God even said, "Now they will be like us knowing GOOD and evil." Thus, another error of Calvinism is exposed.

skypair

 

Dragon,

That's the thrust of the question that Dave Hunt asks in his book What Love is This?

Amen! And one thing Calvinists can't seem to preach about is eshatology. See, they got church and Israel mixed together but the Bible doesn't confuse them. So instead, Calvinists/Reformers simply say (as they often do about theology), "It is not for us to know the hidden wisdom of God."

R.C. Sproul even says this regarding salvation! "We can't know why God chose whom He chose to salvation." Then how can you preach that Calvinism knows it's "elect" are chosen at all??! I've tried twice to ask Reformbeliever this but, apparently he has no testimony regarding being chosen either.

skypair

 

Whoa! Hold on there and back it up two steps and a hair pin.

I know your are speaking about Reformed testimony ONLY in regard to answering your question and NOT about His salvation.

I have spoken with him quite bit and gotten to know him a bit better through our discussions. So I would stand tooth and nail to any that may question his salvation testimony.

They don't know who the elect are - as in "quick go catch that guy, he's one of us" They know they are saved same as you and I. Because they have faith and believe with the evedence of a life changed giving testimony to that New nature God has given us ALL.

I just want to be straight here Skypair, you WERE only speaking of his answer concerning you question and not his salvation testimony, right??

 

Thank you for your defense brother. Yes, he has questioned my salvation more than once. That is why I have had to ignore him. I only have two on ignore, and he is one of them. Thanks again.

 

I know NOTHING about his personal salvation testimony. I know what he wrote in 2 books I have read -- "Chosen by God" and another about prayer. He specifically he does not know why God chooses who He does. So how can he know he is saved. He says he doesn't know why God chose Him. Maybe God didn't, right?

To advance the error, he says God doesn't "change His mind." That is, prayer doesn't change God. Well, I'd have to ask how he could be totally depraved one day and saved the next. Was Sproul not (in eternity past when God "foreknew" or presently when God "called," take your pick) eternally condemned and the next moment eternally saved?

It's nice you can speak with him. I hope you can talk some sense into him.

skypair

P.S. Don't mind reformb -- he doesn't "ignore," he just can't answer. Maybe he'll tell you his testimony of how he knows he is "chosen" of God.

 

skypair,

re: "Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe. "

But since a person cannot consciously CHOSE to believe things, what is the person to do?

 

rstrats,

MB has a pretty good answer, if long. We CAN consciously choose, rstrats. We have the "knowledge of good and evil" -- " I offer thee life and death; choose life" as God told Abraham.

There's a passage that I am preparing to start a thread on, Col 1:13 -- "Who [God] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:..."

Calvinists are constantly quoting Jesus (paraphrase): "all that the Father hath given me I receive and none will I cast out." This, as if God chose them and gave them to Christ. But in Col 1:13 we detect (from 1:5-6) that God JUSTIFIED us when we believed the gospel and then "translated" us into Christ's kingdom to be SANCTIFIED therein.

"Called" by the gospel (OT and NT) -- JUSTIFIED by God (OT, too) -- SANCTIFIED by Christ (church ONLY so far -- OT "translated" into Christ's MILLENIAL kingdom for sanctification.).

What do you see as precluding us from "consciously choosing?"

skypair